Hi, I am a new memner and old builder though getting back into it after many many years. I see a lot of quality changes since I last worked on detailing armor. What still seems difficult is accurate data on placing vehicles make/model/marking at the right location. I am planning something with operation Cobra and and the Ardennes offensive, I know from research there were Tiger (limited numbers) and Panthers involved in both but I'd really like to accurately portray the variants as well as the proper divisions/groups markings. Can someone suggest either literature or online documentation to help in this regard? I am also interested in the same for US AFV's. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!

Hi Bill,

I see this call for help has languished for several days with no replies - quite an unusual situation here on Armorama.

Your request actually covers a lot of ground though and perhaps that's why no one was willing to jump in. There are guys who specialize in nothing but Panther and Tigers who spend weeks and months researching the answers to the questions you've asked.

I'd suggest the following strategy: Start broad and then narrow your search for specifics down by stages.

Do some general research on the battles themselves to identify the order-of-battle (units, their organization, and the vehicles they were issued with) along with information on the weather and terrain conditions. In your case, I'd suggest these Osprey titles:

Operation Cobra

Battle of the Bulge Vol. 1

Battle of the Bulge Vol. 2

All of these titles are pretty contemporary and contain fairly current understandings of the history of the particular battles. They're also fairly inexpensive and available (either new or used) on Amazon.

Once you have identified the units and the time period, you can then research when a unit was issued the particular vehicle type you want to model. This will narrow the manufacturing time window down to identify the particular features present on those vehicles at that time of issue.

There are too many references available on Panthers, Tigers, and Shermans to list, but getting recommendations is easy once you identify the specific vehicle model and manufacturing preiod. Also, depending on the partucular vehicle you want to build, there may be some kit options that are more accurate or that require less work than others (for example, DML and Cyber Hobbies have kitted numerous versions of the Panther, Tiger II and Sherman - some of which might be acceptably accurate for your needs right out of the box).

This same goes for markings. You need specific units, times, and places identified to ask the exact question since markings varied continously throughout the war and differed between units. For example, there were both WH and SS units with Panthers during the Ardennes, and many different US divisions and independent tank battlions fought during Operation Cobra. This also applies to camouflage, especially with German vehicles, but also to a lesser extent with US vehicles (ex: some US divisions used OD and black camouflaged Shermans during the Operation Cobra breakout and others didn't).

You'll also have to accept that some answers simply aren't available or the answers are subject to quite a bit of interpretation. This is particularly true of the German vehicles. For example, the question of the colors of the turret numbers on the Tiger II's used during the Ardennes offensive is a subject of near endless debate among many very knowlegable folks - both professional historians and talented amature enthusiasts. However, there has been some recent concurrence on the camouflage patterns used on those same tanks, so the state of knowlege on all of these subjects is constantly changing.

In the end, you'll probably have to make some educated guesses and ultimately just have to decide when you have enough information to satisfy your personal "correctness threshold." (Always finding that last, elusive bit after you've finished your project and put it on the shelf!)

Finally, don't be afraid to follow your research where ever it leads. I started my latest project with a completely different end-goal in mind:

DML StuG IV Early to Late Conversion

However, as I learned more and more about the subject, I changed my plans several times and am now actually building a model of a particular variant that at first I thought I'd never find enough information on. So, an open mind and a willingness to accept the information that you find and not try to force the facts to fit a preconcieved picture of the model you'd like to build will stand you in good stead. In the end, your work will be more accurate and historically correct.

Once you dial in some of the specifics, I'm sure you'll be able to ask more pointed questions to get the precise answers you need for your projects.

HTH,

Hi. You could look here: http://www.ss501panzer.com/Tanks_of_SS501.htm
for Ardennes Tiger info.

Just my euro 0.02, which I intend to be an addition to Mike's post, and it is in no way meant to invalidate his opinion - he makes many good points. I especially like his point about letting yourself be guided (at least to some extent) by your research.

Let me also add that there are far more knowledgeable people out there so please do not take my word as gospel.


I would suggest that the most important thing is to first clearly decide exactly what you want to build:


1) Are you doing your research first, decide upon a specific vehicle and try and find the appropriate kit and goodies later?

2) Do you have a few kits in the stash and you are looking for alternatives to options offered by the kits?

If option two than possibly the easiest (and I would guess the most efficient routes) would be research production dates, and then google for images and browsing through books for battles or unit histories that fit that date.

If option 1 (which seems to be your choice) the first step should indeed be to find out what units fought in what campaign, decide upon a unit, and then use a unit history (or battle history) to look for images, and then work from there (the latter two can also be reversed - look for images in a battle history first, and than unit history later).

Since field modifications were quite common, yet not always uniform, you are almost forced to have to work of a photograph (or series of photographs). Some individual vehicles are very well documented, some not so well (only one or two blurred images of the destroyed vehicle exist) - and you have to work with (educated) guesses and artistic license on those occasions.

An example of this is the question whether during the Normandy Campaign the tools of the Jagdpanthers (in the first two companies) of schwere Panzerjäger Abteilung 654 were relocated to the engine deck - as the unit itself advised as a modification -, some where stored inside the vehicle, or whether they were stored on the factory supplied racks. There seem to be only one or two photograph that give somewhat of a clear view of the engine deck and engine hatch, and those date (probably) to after the campaign in Normandy. Likewise it is questionable if they ever implemented the welding of a 'step' on the rearmost schürze (to enable the crew to climb easily upon the rear engine deck) for the simple reason that on most photographs these shürzen are simply missing.

Proper identification and interpretation of photographs can be a problem - although the source of the photograph can be a good indicator of reliability, for instance whether the photograph comes from the collection of a unit's veteran association or the private collection of a veteran or not. Likewise, vehicles of some German units apparently might be identified by visible unit markings, typical camouflage schemes or typical numbering styles and systems. Others painted their vehicles in far more generic schemes, and therefore it might be much more difficult to assign a specific vehicle to a specific unit, especially if the vehicle type was used by various different units in the general area. As an example for Normandy - AFAIK - some tank destroyers were unique to 21st Panzer (they were the creation of the maintenance company), just as Jagdpanthers were unique to sPzJ.-Abt. 654 and IIRC 'King Tigers' to sPz.-Abt. 503. The proper attribution of Tiger I's is already a bigger problem (since more units in Normandy operated them), let alone the attribution of Panthers and Panzer IV's.

Converserly, AFAIK, the origin of the Jagdpanzer IV A-0 (pre-production vehicle) in the collection of the armour museum at Saumur is unknown. Allegedly it was recovered in Normandy and it has been suggested that it belonged to Panzer Lehr (which is the 2nd option offered in the Dragon kit) but last time I looked (which was a while ago) that attribution was far from certain. The only photographs I know of of that vehicle 'in the field' were taken in Germany on the training-grounds there.

Also, to my knowledge of German vehicles, 'official' identifying marks of specific vehicle types could be introduced at various different points during production runs, and there could be slight differences between the various factories. Add to that the fact that on occasion the Germans tried to keep their vehicles running by using spares from or cannibalize older vehicles. A simple example again is provided by the Jagpanthers (early model with late (two-piece) barrel and late model with early (single piece) barrel.

It would indeed be ideal if you could use documentary records to find out what vehicle was issued at any given date. This method has a few major problems: at the unit level they can be very unreliable (both in identifying date and type of vehicle). Many records are not easily accessible, and many records have simply been lost.
There was one thread on Missing-Lynx where somebody tried to reconstruct the delivery of IIRC StuG IV's to the front, trying to match shipment records with records of vehicle deliveries at unit level. On occasion it matched, but regularly shipments 'disappeared' into thin air (that is, there was a record of shipment, but none of delivery) while 'StuG's,' 'StuG III's' and on occasion 'tanks' were delivered to the units that had never been shipped (as far as he could reconstruct).


There is some information available here, there are some specialised websites, and a wealth of information is available in the forums of

http://www.missing-lynx.com

There are many debates there (some of an (almost obscure) academic nature) that discuss specific units or specific vehicles at specific times. Regularly images are provided (since they are usually the subject of discussion).

I cannot judge for certain, but I do get the impression that data about vehicle types there tends to be more up to date than that available in most literature.

There is also quite a bit of information available on this site.

From what I have observed, it is well worth making good use of the 'search' function on both sites before posting questions in these forums - it simply reduces the risk of people not answering or answering in a snarky tone that "this is the umpteenth time that question has been asked," and subsequently tell you to use the search function. Conversely if you make clear that you have made an effort to look for the answer yourself they tend to be more helpful. Likewise a more specified question will (if knowledge is available) more often yield an answer.

Hope this helps a bit, and if anyone has more accurate information, please correct me.

Cheers,

Harm

You're asking about a pretty huge range of vehicles and units, and a comprehensive answer would require several shelves of books. As mentioned, the Osprey books are good for overviews of the campaigns you are interested in. The Osprey New Vanguard series (devoted to specific vehicle types), include color and marking schemes for a selection of vehicles.
Good modeling references for US vehicles are the Concord publications, "US Tank Battles in France," and "US Tank Battles in Germany," both by Steven Zaloga. These are photo books with color profiles of selected vehicles, and Zaloga is one of the top researchers in the field.