Few questions about winterketten for the Pz.Kpfw. IV gurus:

1. When did winterketten first start appearing on vehicles in the field?
2. Would I be on safe ground modeling an Ausf. F1 with winterketten? If anyone can point me to photos or a good reference book, I'd appreciate it.
3. If I model an Ausf. F2/G, am I correct that it would be my option whether to make it with schurzen (Mar 1943+) and/or zimmerit (Dec 1943+)?

Thanks for any help.

Bill;

I'll not claim any sort of Pz.IV (or any other form of) guru-dom, Thank You, but I may have some OK answers to start you out with...

Winterketten...

As we have now seen in Dragon's recent kits of the StuG III F/8 and the Pz.III N "Leningrad" - and well-doc'd in many photos, winterketten appeared on Pz.III variants deployed in Russia as of maybe OCT 1942. These winterketten were applied by shops and crew in the field- so (I presume) the track-sets were shipped to the front and handed out as available...

There are a FEW pics showing winterketten on Pz. IV versions, but all of these I have seen are of long-gun types, so G and mostly H tanks. SOME of those "winterketten on -IV" pics are actually of Ostketten-equipped vehicles- one needs to look closely! Ostketten came along in 1944.

It would make some sense though that an F1 COULD have used winterketten -the F1, like the later Pz. III variants and the IV-G+ tanks, used the 40cm track sets, which the winterketten were based on. So, those winterketten would fit the F1, too. I have not seen any picture documenting an F1 so dressed, but I think it reasonable that one could have been, as the F1 served in Russia in 1942-43 along-side those Pz. III N and StuG III F/8.

Zimm (factory applcation) on Pz. IV F2/G?

NO. Not "factory" and not likely any field application on F2 tanks. F2 only produced up to JULY 1942. WAY before zimm became "fashionable". G was produced from May 42 to June 43, and also preceded factory zimmerit, which started up in DEC 1943.

Some few G MAY have received field zimmerit applications in later 1943, as indeed did at least one SdKfz 251 and various tanks. I don't think any zimm paste was supplied out to field units before July or Aug 1943. You would probably be "reaching" to apply a field-coat of zimm to an F2 or an early G. I don't think very many Heer (Army) tanks of any type actually got field zimm'd... but maybe it was more common in Waffen-SS panzer units, as those chaps apparently got somewhat better supplies of "new" stuff...

Schurzen on the Pz. IV hull appeared in MAR 1943 - on the later production G, as Dragon has now kitted. NO F2 was factory-fitted with schurzen (again, F2 ended production in JUL 42, well before schurzen were developed for Pz.- and StuG III, let alone -IV). I THINK that some F2 had turret schurzen fitted at some point - probably as field modifications. But not hull plates.

Hope this-all helps your deliberations (probably will more serve to start up some debate, but THAT could be of "help" too!)!

Bob

Hi Bob - Thanks for the detailed response.

With regard to an Ausf. F1 equipped with winterketten, the only thing I've found is an old discussion thread on Missing Lynx with a dead photo link. Still, it seems someone found evidence of an F1 in winterketten. But in light of the fact that only 500 or so were built, not all of them were sent to the eastern front, and taking into account combat losses, it seems like an F1 in winterketten would have been a relatively rare bird.

As far as an Ausf. G is concerned, am I correct that I could model a vehicle with winterketten, no zimmerit, and schurzen (assuming a later production vehicle)? If so, which Dragon kit would you suggest as a base?

Thanks again for your help.

Bill;

Please don't skip out on the F1 with winterketten just because there were "only 500 or so" produced! - many of which did go to Russia, and "500" does comprise a fair number of tanks, and evidently several survived into 1943. So, you could be reasonable, there, I think. It would definitely look cool!

As to the IV-G without zimm (that would be all G, if we are speaking factory zimm, here), with schurtzen and on winterketten.... This one is pretty simple***!

Buy the new Dragon IV-G Apr-May production kit 6594! This is (was) the real (as versus F2/G) G version produced and it comes with the then-newly-issued schurtzen! Put it up on winterketten lifted from the StuG F/8 or that Panzer III N kit and you'll have it made "right out of the box (OK, a couple of boxes)"!

Another G option is that previously-released G "Kharkov" kit. Great G - but if you want those schurtzen on that one, you'll have to source both racks and plates elsewhere.

Of course, if you want to model a "correct" Pz. IV long-gun version without zimm and with factory schurtzen - and one which could have been seen on winterketten in late 1943 - you could easily go with the new IV-H mid-production Sep-Nov kit 6526. There were more H than G tanks produced.

All the winterketten discussion for ANY long-gun IV hangs on the question of whether winterketten were still in use in late 1943 _ the StuG III F/8 and the Pz. III N vehicles as kitted by Dragon represent vehicles with winterketten in winter 1942-43. The IV with factory schurtzen came out in MAR 43 (G), and thus would have missed winter 42-43 and the obvious winterketten. IF winterketten did continue in service into winter 43-44, then these long-gun IV versions would likely have experienced same. At least so I think!

My opinion: Go for either the G or H as above. You'll get your factory schurtzen, skip out on zimm, and I'm pretty sure that those winterketten didn't get thrown away once winter ended in Mar-Apr 43!

I look forward to seeing this project! Both of the above kits are calling me loudly - maybe the G more so than the H - I like the look of the IV with schurtzen and without zimm - which is available on the later H kit or from DIY as desired.

Cheers!

Bob

I smell a build ... DML 6594 + ATL 19.

WOOT!

You WILL post some WIP on this ol' thang as it comes along, won't you? I (maybe 1 or many others, too) would love to see that new G kit build up!

PS: I don't know how much you'll be into those ATL-19 (I'll guess these are Fruil metal winterketten?) tracks... but, right now, if you went to SprueBrothers, I think you could get that Pz.III N w/ winterketten magic tracks for 30 and around 8 shipping... I personally like the Dragon magics - so this is why I pop that notion up here. Seems like a guy could get a nice panzer kit plus the tracks, swap tracks between kits, and...! 2-fer!

I'll be watching for whatever you post!

Good Luck and "build wisely (and fun-ly - nah, that ain't a real word, but!)"!

Bob