Hello all, new boy on the block here, need a little help.
Have an old Tamiya M3A1 that I am building and looking for some unit marking for post Normandy?
Can find M5 references all over the shop - but M3 a bit more difficult!
So US, Brit, Canadian or French - anyone got some photos they can share or point me at?
Cheers in advance.
Bart
Hosted by Darren Baker
Stuart M3A1 - Europe
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 11:58 AM UTC
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 04:34 PM UTC
Bart,
The Tamiya kit is actually an M3, not M3A1 and very, very, very few of these _might_ have been in service in NW Europe post D-Day. If there were any, they would be within Commonwealth formations as the US didn't land any and the French were never supplied with any.
As was discussed on a similar M3 thread several weeks ago, you're really going to have to hope someone can come up with a photo of an actual vehicle as this version of the Stuart was no longer supposed to be in service, having been replaced by first the M3A3 and then the M5A1 in Commonwealth Recce units by 1944. A number did remain in secondary roles in units that were not supposed to have them, eg as artillery FOO vehicles, ambulances, ammo carriers in infantry regiments, etc.
I have seen a couple of photos of Brit M3A1s in artillery units or attached to infantry units as the commander's charger, but no M3s.
Also realise that the Tamiya kit has several significant accuracy errors, from the turret being too small to the tracks not having the end connectors in the correct place to the hull proportions being off to suit the motorisation that originally came with the kit to the arrangement of the air cleaners matching the small number of Diesel Stuarts produced and not the vast majority which were gasoline powered.
If you really want to portray one of the many Stuarts used after D-Day, you'll need to start from the AFV Club M5 or M5A1 kits or even the M3A3 kit. From those beginnings there are a LOT of markings we could provide.
If you are set on an actual horseshoe turret M3 in NW Europe, the pickin's will be really, really slim, if there are any at all.
The Tamiya kit _can_ be used for a lot of other cool units, from the 1942-43 period, if that suits you better.
Paul
The Tamiya kit is actually an M3, not M3A1 and very, very, very few of these _might_ have been in service in NW Europe post D-Day. If there were any, they would be within Commonwealth formations as the US didn't land any and the French were never supplied with any.
As was discussed on a similar M3 thread several weeks ago, you're really going to have to hope someone can come up with a photo of an actual vehicle as this version of the Stuart was no longer supposed to be in service, having been replaced by first the M3A3 and then the M5A1 in Commonwealth Recce units by 1944. A number did remain in secondary roles in units that were not supposed to have them, eg as artillery FOO vehicles, ambulances, ammo carriers in infantry regiments, etc.
I have seen a couple of photos of Brit M3A1s in artillery units or attached to infantry units as the commander's charger, but no M3s.
Also realise that the Tamiya kit has several significant accuracy errors, from the turret being too small to the tracks not having the end connectors in the correct place to the hull proportions being off to suit the motorisation that originally came with the kit to the arrangement of the air cleaners matching the small number of Diesel Stuarts produced and not the vast majority which were gasoline powered.
If you really want to portray one of the many Stuarts used after D-Day, you'll need to start from the AFV Club M5 or M5A1 kits or even the M3A3 kit. From those beginnings there are a LOT of markings we could provide.
If you are set on an actual horseshoe turret M3 in NW Europe, the pickin's will be really, really slim, if there are any at all.
The Tamiya kit _can_ be used for a lot of other cool units, from the 1942-43 period, if that suits you better.
Paul
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 05:14 PM UTC
As discussed in the other thread quite a few M3A1's were still used in the recce role but mainly in the British Independat Tank and Armoured Bdes. The use of the M3A3 and M5's was not universal in the Commonwealth Recce Role in NWE. There are pictures in the other thread.
Cheers
Al
Cheers
Al
AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 05:18 PM UTC
The M3 was used in 1941, in the Phillipines and 1942 in North Africa. Some US Marine Tank Battalions had M3's at Guadalcanal and Bougainville, 1943. Commonwealth forces used them in N. Africa as well as well as Burma.
Best I could find was that by 1944 any M3 was either stateside as a training tank, or retrofitted as a flame tank in the Pacific. Even then, the Marines had begun transitioning to all Shermans.
G
Best I could find was that by 1944 any M3 was either stateside as a training tank, or retrofitted as a flame tank in the Pacific. Even then, the Marines had begun transitioning to all Shermans.
G
Dangeroo
#023
Joined: March 13, 2009
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Posted: Friday, July 01, 2011 - 07:09 PM UTC
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 02, 2011 - 11:11 AM UTC
Stephan,
While the older thread does talk about the M3A1 and jason asks about the M3A1, he is looking to build the old Tamiya kit, which is definitely an M3 horseshoe turret. _That_ we didn't talk about before and I still haven't seen an picture, ever, of a horseshoe M3 post D-Day, at least with the turret on. There is a photo of what is either an M3 or an M3A1 without the turret in a Canadian arty unit in Holland in the spring of 1945, but even that might be an M3A1.
Even with the correct gasoline engine configuration, there weren't many of the horseshoe turret M3s built and even fewer went to European allies who might have brought one to NW Europe after D-Day.
Paul
While the older thread does talk about the M3A1 and jason asks about the M3A1, he is looking to build the old Tamiya kit, which is definitely an M3 horseshoe turret. _That_ we didn't talk about before and I still haven't seen an picture, ever, of a horseshoe M3 post D-Day, at least with the turret on. There is a photo of what is either an M3 or an M3A1 without the turret in a Canadian arty unit in Holland in the spring of 1945, but even that might be an M3A1.
Even with the correct gasoline engine configuration, there weren't many of the horseshoe turret M3s built and even fewer went to European allies who might have brought one to NW Europe after D-Day.
Paul
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 29 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 10:30 AM UTC
cheers guys - did take a stroll through that other thread and very interesting, but just trying to decipher it a little via a new thread!!
Looks like I might have to go pacific with this then, ah well, so be it! Just felt like sand bagging the buggery out of it, maybe I still will...
And I'm not a fanatic modeller with the details, so long as it looks pretty good at the end (especially with the old kits), and is in the right continent! A Tiger Tank in Guadalcanal would be a long stretch for me even!
I'm also building an old Monogram 1/32 Sherman - same deal with the tracks as with the Tamiya kit, but again, a fun build and keep the hand in!!
Looks like I might have to go pacific with this then, ah well, so be it! Just felt like sand bagging the buggery out of it, maybe I still will...
And I'm not a fanatic modeller with the details, so long as it looks pretty good at the end (especially with the old kits), and is in the right continent! A Tiger Tank in Guadalcanal would be a long stretch for me even!
I'm also building an old Monogram 1/32 Sherman - same deal with the tracks as with the Tamiya kit, but again, a fun build and keep the hand in!!
TimStreeter
Joined: October 19, 2008
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 80 posts
Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 11:01 AM UTC
I recently built the Tamiya M3. The tank is portrayed as a diesel version (this in and of itself is not an inaccuracy) but it had limited use during the war, mainly confined to stateside training and some possible limited use in the Pacific in 1941 at the very onset of the war.
It's an easy kit to fix up if you can live with the undersized turret. Here's an article about how I did it:
http://usarmymodels.com/MANUFACTURERS/Tamiya/Tamiya%2035042/tamiya35042str.html
Cheers,
Tim
It's an easy kit to fix up if you can live with the undersized turret. Here's an article about how I did it:
http://usarmymodels.com/MANUFACTURERS/Tamiya/Tamiya%2035042/tamiya35042str.html
Cheers,
Tim
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 11:44 AM UTC
Thanks Tim - already read that with great interest thanks to Google and me looking all over the place to see if I could place this model in Europe!!
Or perhaps I could go with the decals in the it and head it to North Africa perhaps?
By the by, great website for a modeller stranded in small town NZ.
Cheers again,
Bart
Or perhaps I could go with the decals in the it and head it to North Africa perhaps?
By the by, great website for a modeller stranded in small town NZ.
Cheers again,
Bart
lukiftian
Joined: March 12, 2010
KitMaker: 791 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 04:53 PM UTC
Some of the African FF units may have had M3s turned over to them. Likely the hull MG ports were welded shut. It's a good place to start.
More likely seen in Italy
More likely seen in Italy
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
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Posted: Sunday, July 03, 2011 - 04:56 PM UTC
have had some luck from another source guys, will keep you all informed. Yes, already deleted the 'wing' machine guns!!
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 29 posts
Posted: Monday, July 04, 2011 - 03:41 PM UTC
This below from a new internet mate... So my trail is hotting up - so it'll be a 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry tank. Now to find out that units combat history to place it somewhere - anyone have some website directions to save my googling...?
"One unit that used Stuart III in it's recce company was 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, senior regiment in 33rd Armoured Brigade.
Ken Tout was a a lance-corporal in 1NY, commander of a Stuart III prior to and immediately after their arrival in Normandy on D+12/13Went on to gun, and then command various of their Sherman I's prior to being invalided out in Holland 1944. BEST author by a long margin, of life as a squaddie, in tanks in WWII, though beware 'Bloody Tilly', which is informative, but doesn't flow like the rest of his books. Get hold of 'Tanks, Advance!', and you'll want to model his Stuart!
As our BBC are obliged to say whenever products are mentioned on the airwaves 'Other units of course, are available!'.
There were 5 other Armd Brigs allocated Stuart III, ( notice no Armd Div's) I can advise you of the generic markings of all 6 of these units, though not individual vehicles.
The Rosetta Stone for 1NY however, is research by one of Ken Tout's fellow tankers 'Bud' Abbott. Somehow he's managed to list virtually every Sherman in the unit, it's name (all Shermans, at least, were named!), turret numbers (two digit,but similar to German), personnel of each vehicle (where known, but extensive), and WD number (the one that begins 'T????????').
Er, lose the sandbags idea now. American artifice. Instead start collecting Brit ammunition/artillery/boxes, from eg Accurate Armour/Resicast. These were spot-welded to horizontal surfaces to provide additional stowage for crew's personal stuff."...
"One unit that used Stuart III in it's recce company was 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, senior regiment in 33rd Armoured Brigade.
Ken Tout was a a lance-corporal in 1NY, commander of a Stuart III prior to and immediately after their arrival in Normandy on D+12/13Went on to gun, and then command various of their Sherman I's prior to being invalided out in Holland 1944. BEST author by a long margin, of life as a squaddie, in tanks in WWII, though beware 'Bloody Tilly', which is informative, but doesn't flow like the rest of his books. Get hold of 'Tanks, Advance!', and you'll want to model his Stuart!
As our BBC are obliged to say whenever products are mentioned on the airwaves 'Other units of course, are available!'.
There were 5 other Armd Brigs allocated Stuart III, ( notice no Armd Div's) I can advise you of the generic markings of all 6 of these units, though not individual vehicles.
The Rosetta Stone for 1NY however, is research by one of Ken Tout's fellow tankers 'Bud' Abbott. Somehow he's managed to list virtually every Sherman in the unit, it's name (all Shermans, at least, were named!), turret numbers (two digit,but similar to German), personnel of each vehicle (where known, but extensive), and WD number (the one that begins 'T????????').
Er, lose the sandbags idea now. American artifice. Instead start collecting Brit ammunition/artillery/boxes, from eg Accurate Armour/Resicast. These were spot-welded to horizontal surfaces to provide additional stowage for crew's personal stuff."...
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Monday, July 04, 2011 - 07:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
This below from a new internet mate... So my trail is hotting up - so it'll be a 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry tank. Now to find out that units combat history to place it somewhere - anyone have some website directions to save my googling...?
"One unit that used Stuart III in it's recce company was 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry, senior regiment in 33rd Armoured Brigade.
Ken Tout was a a lance-corporal in 1NY, commander of a Stuart III prior to and immediately after their arrival in Normandy on D+12/13Went on to gun, and then command various of their Sherman I's prior to being invalided out in Holland 1944. BEST author by a long margin, of life as a squaddie, in tanks in WWII, though beware 'Bloody Tilly', which is informative, but doesn't flow like the rest of his books. Get hold of 'Tanks, Advance!', and you'll want to model his Stuart!
As our BBC are obliged to say whenever products are mentioned on the airwaves 'Other units of course, are available!'.
There were 5 other Armd Brigs allocated Stuart III, ( notice no Armd Div's) I can advise you of the generic markings of all 6 of these units, though not individual vehicles.
The Rosetta Stone for 1NY however, is research by one of Ken Tout's fellow tankers 'Bud' Abbott. Somehow he's managed to list virtually every Sherman in the unit, it's name (all Shermans, at least, were named!), turret numbers (two digit,but similar to German), personnel of each vehicle (where known, but extensive), and WD number (the one that begins 'T????????').
Er, lose the sandbags idea now. American artifice. Instead start collecting Brit ammunition/artillery/boxes, from eg Accurate Armour/Resicast. These were spot-welded to horizontal surfaces to provide additional stowage for crew's personal stuff."...
Whilst it may have been a Stuart III I'd agree with Paul in that it would be an M3A1 and not a Diesel M3 as the tamiya kit. Have look here and use "Stuart" as a search term where you will see a 33rd AB M3A1 (pic ref B 6659) with the renmants of wading gear:
http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/qryPhotoImg.php
Cheers
Al
Dangeroo
#023
Joined: March 13, 2009
KitMaker: 2,058 posts
Armorama: 1,656 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 07:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Stephan,
While the older thread does talk about the M3A1 and jason asks about the M3A1, he is looking to build the old Tamiya kit, which is definitely an M3 horseshoe turret. _That_ we didn't talk about before and I still haven't seen an picture, ever, of a horseshoe M3 post D-Day, at least with the turret on. There is a photo of what is either an M3 or an M3A1 without the turret in a Canadian arty unit in Holland in the spring of 1945, but even that might be an M3A1.
Even with the correct gasoline engine configuration, there weren't many of the horseshoe turret M3s built and even fewer went to European allies who might have brought one to NW Europe after D-Day.
Paul
Paul,
Sorry, didn't mean to sound definite or anything, just meant to get in the other thread so everyone knows what we're talking about. The thread was asking about the M3A1 and there's always the possibility to convert the Tamiya kit into an M3A1.
Cheers!
Stefan
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 29 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 10:44 AM UTC
looks like I'm going to have to modify the turret though - anyone got an aerial view of the first M5 turret - 2 hatches?
Is it the Tamiya M3A1 with the raised commander's cupola? If so, that variant had been phased out by the time of the Normandy campaign; the cupola had been phased out in favour of two hatches for the turret crew, shaped rather like the 'pie sections' you get in Trivial Pursuit counters. I think it's the same turret that was on the M5.
neat links to the IWM - thanks.
We're getting there, now just need to start finding the time to work on this!!
SO at the moment looking to become a 1 Northam
Is it the Tamiya M3A1 with the raised commander's cupola? If so, that variant had been phased out by the time of the Normandy campaign; the cupola had been phased out in favour of two hatches for the turret crew, shaped rather like the 'pie sections' you get in Trivial Pursuit counters. I think it's the same turret that was on the M5.
neat links to the IWM - thanks.
We're getting there, now just need to start finding the time to work on this!!
SO at the moment looking to become a 1 Northam
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 03:43 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Paul,
Sorry, didn't mean to sound definite or anything, just meant to get in the other thread so everyone knows what we're talking about. The thread was asking about the M3A1 and there's always the possibility to convert the Tamiya kit into an M3A1.
Cheers!
Stefan
No, that's cool. I just didn't want Jason to get confused about the types of Stuarts.
Paul
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 04:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
looks like I'm going to have to modify the turret though - anyone got an aerial view of the first M5 turret - 2 hatches?
It isn't a simple matter to make the M3A1 turret from the M3 turret (I know, I've done it). The protectoscopes are in different places, just for starters. If you're going to that extent, then ditch the Tamiya kit & go straight for the Academy M3A1 kit & save yourself a LOT of heartache.
Quoted Text
Is it the Tamiya M3A1 with the raised commander's cupola? If so, that variant had been phased out by the time of the Normandy campaign; the cupola had been phased out in favour of two hatches for the turret crew, shaped rather like the 'pie sections' you get in Trivial Pursuit counters. I think it's the same turret that was on the M5.
The Tamiya kit is an M3. Only the M3s had the commander's cupola and only a smaller subset of the M3s had the horseshoe turret. Most were flat sided octagonal turrets. I'm also pretty sure that the vast majority of Stuarts supplied to the Commonwealth were the slab sided variant. There werew apparently a few horseshoe Stuart IIs in the desert, but I have never seen any indications of them later either in England, training, or in NW Europe.
Quoted Text
SO at the moment looking to become a 1 Northam
Well, 1 NY did have M3A1s, yes, but to convert the Tamiya M3 to a M3A1 is a long and agonising hassle. It's not just the turret. Buy the Academy kit for that. If you really don't want to go to all that hassle of a conversion or of buying a new M3A1 kit, you need to find someone who used the horseshoe M3.
Paul
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 29 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 05, 2011 - 05:00 PM UTC
hhhmmm, perhaps I'll just burn this model....
as to not wanting to confuse me, "uh huh"....
but has been fun, and as I think I have said above, historical accuracy is not 100% important to me, so long as it looks like it belongs where I have put it, that'll do. I like to get it roughly right though...
Call me a philistine...
as to not wanting to confuse me, "uh huh"....
but has been fun, and as I think I have said above, historical accuracy is not 100% important to me, so long as it looks like it belongs where I have put it, that'll do. I like to get it roughly right though...
Call me a philistine...
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 - 10:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
hhhmmm, perhaps I'll just burn this model....
No, no! It's a nice little kit, one just has to put it in its proper place in history.
Quoted Text
as to not wanting to confuse me, "uh huh"....
Sorry, but Stuarts are almost as confusing as Shermans or Pz IVs.
Quoted Text
but has been fun, and as I think I have said above, historical accuracy is not 100% important to me, so long as it looks like it belongs where I have put it, that'll do. I like to get it roughly right though...
The key to "getting it roughly right" with the Tamiya kit is all in the timing of whoi is using it and when. The US used them in Tunisia:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/1120877/posts
Check the third photo from the top.
The Aussies used them in New Guinea:
http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m3inactionph_1.htm
This page has details on the Aussie vehicles and their markings.
Quoted Text
Call me a philistine...
Never!
Build what you like and how you like. It's a hobby and it ceases to make any sense when it ceases to be fun. Just trying to throw out a collection of facts that you can pick & choose from to make your model as accurate as you want. If you don't care, then have at 'er! If you do, you can tart it up an awful lot.
JDBart
Joined: July 01, 2011
KitMaker: 29 posts
Armorama: 29 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 - 10:40 AM UTC
Yeah, that's the trouble when you pick up a cheap model of trade-me (ebay) auction type sites,a dn then want to model it somewhere it does not belong.
Have a hankering for British Armour at the moment, but looks like it will ahve to be back to North Africa for me and this one!!
I'll have to do a bit more research BEFORE I buy next time and get what I want. but the next time I buy something (as the stash of unbuilt models would supply a small retail chain), I'll probably be back onto a German Armour kick (there's a King Tiger purring out my name at the moment)...
Sooo, back to Tunisia, and I'll put on hold the 1st NY version...
thanks for the help though, certainly been an education on the Stuart, and don't get me started on Sherman's - my favourite build, all 756 variations...!!!
Have a hankering for British Armour at the moment, but looks like it will ahve to be back to North Africa for me and this one!!
I'll have to do a bit more research BEFORE I buy next time and get what I want. but the next time I buy something (as the stash of unbuilt models would supply a small retail chain), I'll probably be back onto a German Armour kick (there's a King Tiger purring out my name at the moment)...
Sooo, back to Tunisia, and I'll put on hold the 1st NY version...
thanks for the help though, certainly been an education on the Stuart, and don't get me started on Sherman's - my favourite build, all 756 variations...!!!
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