Were there any Tiger 1's at Kursk that had Zimmerrit?
Or was that a later addition to the tank. I need to know, because I have to know if I should apply it to mine when I put it into my Zitadel dio.
Thanks!
~Chip :-)

No need to worry about zim at Kursk. Zim was introduced in Sept. of 43. Zitadele was in July - so no zim there.

HTH
Jeff

Was not Zim started in Early 1943? but don't think any was applied for battle can't seem to find no Tiger of the 3 SS panzer that have it. So yes you are lucky.

Actually Zim was first introduced in September of 1943. The stuff was applied to vehicles made until Sept. 1944, when its use was discontinued....

Perhaps you are thinking of the order to switch base colors for vehicles from grey to dark yellow - That order/change took place in Feb. of 1943. ??

Jeff

Before answering I just had to check an internet source. The Tigers posted on the site engaged at Kursk had no zimmerit.

I read in Tony Greenland's "Panzer Modeling" that it was introduced in early 43, and discon. in the fall of 44. He said it was also restricted mostly to Stugs, and something else. With the rare exception that something else would have it.
Now I am confused.
I have a tamiya Mid-Pro. Tiger 1. And I really like Kursk, and I want to do Zimmerrit.
But did it have it? Tony says yes, you guys say no.
I don't know anymore.
I should just sell all of my stock and start getting into crafts!

~Chip :-)

Here is a thread on the subject from a different forum. The subject is StuG III's but the dates would be the same for Tigers. The earlies Mid Tigers did not have zim, but as they were made before September this makes sense. I have several references by Doyle and Jenz that list the date Zim went into use was Sept. 1943. Sorry

Jeff
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=47207&messageid=1060297075

Of course - you could alway say "the heck with all that" and do your Tiger the way you want to! If you want to do Zim - cool, have at it! It doesn't really matter because you are happy and having fun, right?

If he said it was restricted to mostly StuG's ............... THEN THAT'S A CROCK OF ##%$@.
Zimmerit on Tiger I's - King Tigers - Panthers - Panzer IV's - StuG's, and none seen on any panzer's at Kursk.
- ralph

If they didn't have it at Kursk, than where else on the eastern front could I have my Tiger in the summer-time w/zimmerit, and with a couple of infantry running next to it.

The dio idea: Having my tiger on a slight incline with the turret turned and 3 infantry running next to it. It will also have to be in a field of tall grass.

Please help me out.
Thanks!

~Chip :-)

Hi Chip-

The problem isn't that Tigers didn't have zim during the Kursk offensive, it's that no vehicles had it. It isn't a question of location, its time. No tanks had zim during the summer of '43. However, you do have many options for your dio - using the Tamiya mid... Early fall (September and early October) would have the Tiger outfitted with Zim and the infantry still in the summer issue uniforms.

Here are some other battles you might consider:

sPzAbt 505 - This unit took part in the dirve for Kursk, but after the battle were re-outfitted with a number of new Mid-Tigers that had zim. They then were moved to the Smolensk area and saw brutal combat there.

sPzAbt 506 - This unit was formed in July of 43, and saw extensive combat in the Dnieper region. There were many T-34/Tiger clashes in this region after September - so you could do Zim on one of these Tigers.

sPzAbt 509 - Was formed on Sept. 9th. (with Tigers that sported Zim) They engaged Russian forces in the Kirovograd, Kirivoi-Rog, Kiev, and Pavlova areas in southern Russia. VERY heavy fighting took place in this region towards the fall of 43.

These are just a few examples. PM me if you would like pictures of any of these vehicles.... Kursk was cool and all, but if you are set on doing a Tiger with zim, you might consider a different engagement.

HTH
Jeff

Panzer Abteilung 505,
I am curious, was that its own unit, or was it composed of differnt units united to form the 505.

I am looking to do something in the line of the SS, so I can try my hand at that Oak Leaf camo on the uniforms.

And would the 505 have seen action in a field of tall grass anywhere? (I want to try out that Corn silk grass method)

Thanks.

~Chip :-)

Hi Chip-

I think the 505 was formed on it's own - without cobbling together other units.. but I'm not exactly sure on that.

Das Riech (2nd SS) would be a distinct possibility for you if you wanted to go SS. Das Riech took part in the Kursk offensive, however at the end of the August Das Reich moved to the Dnjepr front. There was very heavy fighting in this sector and the regiment accounted for the 2000th armor kill (for the division-so far that year) in this month. There were numerous armor clashes between Tigers and Russian T-34s.

Das Reich moved to the Walki area early in early September. On the 13th, the Russians attacked the lead elements of Das Reich's recon force and a huge tank on tank clash took place over the next two days. Over 78 Russian tanks were destroyed..... Much of this fighting took place on the Steppes - so I'd say your grass dio idea would be a good one.

I wish I could remember where I got these pictures, but these are Das Reich Tiger I's - taken in the late summer of '43.

Correct me if I am wrong, So far as I know for the Kursk operation, the Das Reich Tigers are early production, so if you have Mid-production Tiger, I don't know if you can do a Kursk period dio...

But I could be wrong.

Jrnelson, great information on the Das Reich tigers, your pic brought back my memory of doing my S33 back last year, I think the pics are from Tigers from the Eastern Front.

JR and Chip, Yes Zimmerit was available and used in Zitadelle!!!!!!! SO yes tiger would have it applied!!! Next the order you refer is for the manufacturers to apply it during production. in Early '43 the order came for it to be use in the feild!!! There are even pics of Ferdis in zimmerit for Kursk. Now its time to support JR's arguement the 503 didn't have zimmerit applied to any of the tanks for Kursk, but the 505 who also participated in the battle had at least 2 tigers in zimmerit this is according to TIGER I: On the Eastern Front!! Also of note is that the SS panzer divisions didn't add Zimmerit till later that year!!! HTH STUG

Well, here's a little more mud to make things clearer. There were instances, even after orders for application to new vehicles coming off of the production lines were issued, when vehicles were sent to depots and formations without Zim. Good instances of this occured when the trains carrying the Zim mix from the factory were interdicted or destroyed by allied fighter-bombers. It took a couple of days after application for the mix to cure after application. I have seen photos of armor of the same unit in the same time frame, and in a few cases, in the same picture with some vehicles having Zim and others not.

BlueBear sends.

I must admit that I have never heard of an order to apply zimmerit earlier than September....doesn't mean it didn't happen...

Where can I get a look at those Ferdinands? This has me very curious. I was always under the impression that Zim was a September thing.

Jeff

First sorry on The Ferdinand. I looked at the wrong pic in the Reference. The pic is of a Ferdinand in Italy. PG 15 of Schiffer's Rarities of the Tiger Family. What can I say but OOPS!!!! On the not of Zimmerit I'm using The afore mentoned Tiger book and Squadrons Panther in Action. All are realy good for reference to tanks on all the fronts!!! My guess it was a feild test at Kursk because I can only find pics of the 2 505 tigers and one panther in Zimmerit. Note that in all cases it was roughly aplied in the feild before the battle!!! HTH and clears somethings up STUG

Early 43 is my reference also. two places one in panzer colors and the other one don't remember and yes Dave no mid Tigers at Kursk.
Now on the Zim on 505 was applied to Tigers recieved later on not the orginial batch but second ones given and also applied to King Tigers given to the unit when they had turned in their Tiger I's. Heck if you want Zim on your Tiger put it their it is your Tiger (++) (++) (++) (++) (++) (++) (++)
Oink Oink
The cav is nice stuff check out my pics in my signature to see it. (++) (++)
Oink Bloody Oink