Dear all,

In planning a diorama, there are 1-2 elements that I just can't "see." I believe that happened because, from what I've learned about dioramas thus far, part of my mind is telling me that the seemingly obvious or logical choice would be wrong and lead to something too balanced looking. If life imitates art, and dioramas imitate life - messy, not symmetrical - then the diorama should reflect that imbalance. If anyone here cares to weigh in on the matter, with an opinion for a possible course or action, I would most certainly appreciate it. Yes, it is my diorama and I have to muck through it the best that I can but at the moment there are those dead zones that I just can't seem to imagine, in order to then fill those spots in.

On the left end is a road, on a hill that slopes to the front of the diorama and the hill also angles down toward the center, to a degree; that hill has trees, some stones, and so on. At the back, on the hill, is a German tank with a figure with binoclulars, looking to the center of the diorama; slightly ahead of the tank, stopped on the road, is a half-track, figures exiting the vehicle, running to set up their positions. At the other end will be the US troops, with some of them more toward the center. They will be at, or near, a small downed aircraft. The aircraft arose in part, as a way to "plan away" what may have been considerable empty space in the back middle part of the diorama layout; then, it became the plot point, of the story - or McGuffin, as Hitchcock called it, in the movies. The story could be that one
side or another had shot down the plane, or saw it going down and went to check on it, and all arrived about the same time. Trouble ensues, shortly. I will try to find the human figures with poses, to reflect that.

At the moment, I think I will show that the plane at first tried to land on the road but then, perhaps a wheel broke or a wing clipped a tree, and the plane then veers off the road into a clearing. A clearing in the country side is of course never "clear" - ruts, stones, trees and so on - so I will try to depict the plane's sudden and somewhat violent deceleration across the landscape in the proper fashion. (Parenthetically, I had considered trying my hand at a heavy timbered bridge over a dry ravine perhaps, and have the plane at or near the bridge, roughly at the center, and show the opposing forces all headed toward it. But, if I did that, it leads back perhaps to the problem of the back half or middle of the diorama being too empty).
When possible, I'll talk to a pilot/relative, and ask about possible realistic scenarios so as to best model damage to the plane. I have looked at photos of amazingly intact, downed planes and have read of pilots shot down numerous times who lived through those events.

Problem #1, as I see it: due to tree covered hill on the left where the Germans are grouping, I don't know what to do at the right end regarding terrain where the US troops are, in such a fashion that won't look too similar, to the left end. (At the onset, I had first thought of hills and maybe large bushes with the US tank hidden there, waiting, in case of trouble). But, then I realized it looked like "every one has a hill, to hide behind" and that too perfect balance just didn't seem right.

Problem #2, number of vehicles involved. If both sides have two vehicles, is that too neatly balanced? US troops will have a Sherman tank, and I have thought of also using an M47 Priest or even a truck on the road near, or at, the plane to explain the number of people on the scene. Yes, the troops could have ridden on the tank, if they had been passing by or had arrived from nearby; here, again, I'm not certain if everyone has two vehicles if it seems too balanced.

This diorama is to be 14 x 54, to fit atop our nice, fake fireplace. It may sound big but, actually, to fit on the vehicles and have a road on some/most of it in a not too straight and narrow fashion, and leaving required amount of room in center/back for the plane to skid/bounce to a landing, it may in fact be downright "busy" and may be a problem that I hadn't anticipated.
While vehicle and figures are the usual 1:35 scale, someone had said that I could perhaps use a 1:32 scale plane; while there are a few 1:35 scale planes about, they tend to be pricey, and part of me cringes at building/painting such a plane, to then damage it it, as part of the diorama. We may "suffer for our art," but I would rather not get carried away by it. (And, how one carefully damages a plane, will be quite another matter)... For the record and for what it's worth, I'm considering
the following planes, for the diorama: P-47, Spitfire, ME-109, Mustang, Storch.

Again, if anyone has any thoughts on this, I would truly appreciate your kind assistance and the benefit or your experience. I know that one supposedly has the grand master plan firmly in hand at the start and builds accordingly, but it didn't come to pass quite that neatly in this case, and perhaps that may explain why I can't quite picture a few things at the moment.

Thanks,
SignGuy1, (Pat)

-I would use a jeep as the second American vehicle. They were quite popular throughout the war.
-The plane to be shot down really depends on the time and location of the diorama(you should base it around the gear the oppossing forces have). Just think of damaging the plane as a continuation of art. You can say I know how to build a wreck plane as opposed to just having a couple of pieces broken off(bent propellar, torn/folded wing, fouled strut, etc.).
-To fill in the dead space on the right, try a lightly forested area. You can have some of the American infantry making their way through the trees, as if they are searching for the wreckage.
-Something else I would like to point out; the German figure probably wouldn't be using binoculars in a wooded hilly area. They would more likely limit his view, rather than enhance it.

Hope this helps.

It'svery hard to visualise what you have in mind without a sketch. If I was planning such a large diorama I would do lots of sketches plus I'd do a mock up in cardboard or using models I already had.

While I like big dios I do think it's possible to tell big stories with small scenes.

Here's a link to a similar dio by Terry Ashley on PMMS that might help you visualise it a bit more

Matt;

You made some good points, thanks; if you have photos of downed plane/models, I'd love to see them, as that would be a great help. The dio. setting is French country side (WW2), so I must check further to make certain which plane would have actually been present.
Perhaps I phrased things poorly... the German with binoculars (even with some trees nearby) would be in a position that would allow for use of the field glasses. The real problem is, not being great with math, I don't know what a 14 x 54 diorama setting translates to in real-world physical distance. For all I know right now, could be that all the troops are almost atop one another. ;-)

====

Pat;

Yes, mockups will be in order before progressing too far, and thanks for the provided link. Will also try to refine the idea a bit more, and perhaps ultimately, condense the total dio. size.

Regards, and, thanks to you both.
SignGuy1 (Pat)

Pat

This sounds like an interesting concept. I definitely agree with Pat about a mock up of some sort to get an idea of the perspective.

While there is room for artistic licence with dios, your question about the reality of the idea amounts to this. Assuming that you have given the size in inches - then using a very approximate up scaling at 1/35, 1 inch is nearly equal to 1 yard = so your size is approximately 14 yards by 54 yards. In reality this is a very small area for that number of vehicles. This is where a mockup would help you to see if you can get away with the vehicles you want.

Regarding the aircraft, I would think that post D-Day a Storch would be unlikely - but such a liaison aircraft could have high value intel on board so could explain the rush by both sides to get to it.

Hopefully all goes well and keep us up to date on your progress.

Brian

Brian;

Nice of you to drop by, and comment - thanks.

Yes, actual 14 x 54 dio. size given will be in inches, and from what you say that means in real-world distance everyone may be in the other guy's back pocket almost. So, as Pat and you have said, a mockup/layout to judge things will be a crucial deciding factor before actual building of the terrain.

While the plane idea first arose as method to "plan away" empty space it is now, perhaps, becoming the story. I too wondered, what if one side knew that a person and/or papers of value, were on the plane? And, how to convey that impression, as far as is possible? A plane by itself may look like another victim of the war and be only of passing interest; depending on the type of plane used, extent of damage, I didn't want to be heavy handed and have briefcase or box(es) scattered about the plane, with papers on the ground. RetiredYank had a good idea, of posing the US figures in tree lined area at right end of dio., to
make it appear that they were searching for the plane.
At any rate, now, may be of interest to read what I can find re intel gathering during the war; with luck, I could find actual story that took place that would dovetail with what I am attempting.

Thanks, again
--Pat

Pat H,
I really appreciate the thought your putting into your diorama, but I have to agree with Pat M., without a visual it's hard to imagine what you want.

I'd start with your sentence:

"The story could be that one side or another had shot down the plane, or saw it going down and went to check on it, and all arrived about the same time. Trouble ensues, shortly. I will try to find the human figures with poses, to reflect that."

Forget the composition and the setup and all that, what's the story? Why should we care? You've got a nice idea here about two sides struggling over a prize (a plane, pilot, or cargo) but keep exploring that.

Composition will come naturally from the story is what I think.

One big piece of advice-- with dioramas, less is more. Two well crafted figures and vehicle properly set up will tell a better story than three vehicles and 12 figures.

Good luck, I'll be rooting for you on this one.

Raul;

Thanks for dropping by, to comment. In fact, before coming here to check in at forum, I had been working on a (basic drawing) of the planned dio. to post; as you and Pat had stated it's hard to imagine things at times, tho' I had tried to explain it as much as is possible.

If I got correct method down for posting an image, that will be in this post. (Most sites just allow one to click an "upload photo" button, when in a forum - and, phht, off it goes and one's done. But, at any rate)...

IF the image does show, it is with my hope that those with experience in dio. building can comment, and perhaps steer me away from possible mishap/s and others may readily see things that I do not. I am here to learn, and I have seen stunning work, by a number of people at this site so I'm in the right place to ask for help. I think it wise to seek advice while planning, and not fix blunders, later.

I certainly appreciate your comments; could be trouble that I have had in "seeing" parts of the dio. is that perhaps I have only an idea, but not a strong story, as of yet. Both you and Pat, I think it was, intimate that the small well planned dio can show quite a bit. Perhaps I am thinking too large; yes, in this case I have an area up to 14" x 54" that I can use (to go atop our fireplace). The area to use is there, but it doesn't mean that I have to go with that particular size, really.

Again, my sincere thanks, for your comments.
Regards, Pat

* By the way, I looked at your work "Revolution!" Small world, that... years ago I was married to a lady who was Cuban, (and I suppose that she still is). ;-)



[img]http://gallery.kitmaker.net/500/thumbs/DioSend.png" BORDER="0">[/img]

here is your drawing

Pat,

Sorry, and thanks!, if you had to move/repost my pic. Found, and followed (I thought) the how to process for uploading pics; first time that I attempted that.

Thanks,
--Pat

Dear all,

After further thought stemming from some fine comments (and I posted here seeking a kick to the thought process, so thanks for that), I tried to narrow things down further and also checked into the Aeroscale sister site for some information about planes, this is where things stand, for the moment:

At first the kid/geek inside this older gent wanted a "cool" King Tiger or similar tank on the hill on left end of dio among the trees waiting to pounce - like a gunfighter wearing black gloves in the old movies waiting for the other fellow to show up, I could drop that. So, going with just the German 1/2 track with its figures exiting the vehicle, some running to take up position and at the other end, perhaps the US troops have a Jeep or they all could be on foot, searching for the plane (in a wooded area, thanks to the suggestion by RetiredYank). If on foot, that'd likely imply the presence of a radio, so I would have to buy it or try to make one from clay I should imagine.

I first thought of showing a figure walking away from the plane, with the aid of tree branch as a cane - he in the middle, as the US and German troops close in from the two ends. I think that would show a more human element, to the story; Raul had a good point with the comment of "why should we care?" as things stood in the first plan.

Then, in a twist that was truth being stranger than fiction, the first person who commented on my question at Aeroscale gave me a link to a photo of a small plane hanging in a tree, about 25 foot above ground. Now, there's something one doesn't see in a diorama, everyday. LOL! (My thanks - and credit - for that thought, must go to Jessie_C at Aeroscale). I love it! ;-)

If attempting that, Jessica said that even a fairly small scale plane may be much larger than our 1/35 AFVs, but then went on to say that the plane could be in a tree, atop a small ridge, with the two sides approaching from either end, each unaware of their nearby enemy. (May have to be a pricey and quite large tree or trees, perhaps, but it certainly sounded like it would be a different and interesting sort of thing to try). ;-)

Then, if a figure were descending from the tree via a rope - as the opposing forces approached that area, which in turn implies that the shooting soon starts - this could well lead to an actual story line, (I hope).

Regards,
Pat

Hey mate,
Ilike your idea for the dio but I think the size of your dio will be a problem. Have the base too small and all the vehicles / figures will be too close and look unrealistic. have it in a believable size and you wil end up with lots of dead space.
However, not wishing to be totally negative maybe you could give one of these suggestions some thought.
1).If you still wanted a relaitively large dio have one of the groups already at the grounded plane and the other group advancing towards the plane. This will mean you only have to deal with the realistic distance on one side of the dio.
2).Make the plane the central feature of the the dio and show just the crashed plane and one group already there. If you wanted to add drama you could have them extracting the pilot under fire.
Anyway looking forward to this getting started whichever way you go.
Cheers
Robbo

Robbo,

You had some good points, thanks.

Now, I have to trip over a coherent story, before building. The story is all, but don't always come to mind, fully blown. Not easy, but perhaps part of the fun, in its own way.

Thanks, Pat

Hi Pat

I was interested to read your posts

Here are a few of my thoughts, hope something in them may help.

I think one way way to help work out what will look good is get a piece of board (or cardboard or paper) the same size as your planned diorama. Then use existing models and experiment with placement & positioning. This can help you decide what looks best and where, by moving them about. You can sketch on the road, high areas, trees, grassed areas, streams, etc to help get a feel. You still need to use your imagination to visualise it in 3D, but it can help to visualise more clearly.

Diroamas by neccessity are often a little more crowded than what might appear in reality. Its one of the little compromises you have to make when modelling dioramas, few of us have the space or time or money to build something that has real space in it.

Probably either side would send something fast and mobile - like a jeep or kubelwagen, maybe with an armed escort vehicle if the plane went down close to the other side's lines, but that doesn't mean you should use those vehicles if you don't want to. There is always the possibilty that other vehicles from either side were nearby & saw the plane go down, and went unsummoned to rescue/capture any survivor, so any other wheeled, tracked or semi tracked vehicle is possible, even likely.

If the plane goes down close to a front line, a section of infantry on foot could realistically be sent to have a look. To break up the balance you were talking about, you could just have infantry (who could have A.T. weapons) or even just a motor cyclist (with sidecar) on one end.

You could also have a hill one end and a creek bed at the other for the opposing forces to be approaching from.

Maybe the ruins of a house at one end, or a knocked out tank from an earlier engagement (where infantry might have been dug in around already anyway)


Another thing to consider is that I think its possible to work youself into a state of
immobility trying to obtain absolute realism. Yes you want it to look real, but unless you were there & have a photgraphic memory for the details, or have some 3D colour holograms of an exact scene from the time , or have a working time machine, as long as the equipment you use was in use in the same time period and theatre of war, you are making what could be real. War time pictures and old film show scenes that appear to be quite unremarkable, all the way to scenes that might be considered improbable, were it not for the photographic evidence.

In short I think you need to do what you actually want to do, rather than what you think you should do to be 'realistic', if you are going to get the most out of the build, and the finished result.

have fun with it & good luck

cheers
Neil

Neil,

Thanks very much for your note, which struck me as was well thought out, reasoned & balanced - it wasn't negative nor was it
overly optimistic as you mention ups and downs one can run into while attempting the "masterpiece." ;-) It was also a nice pep talk, which doesn't hurt; as you say, one can get bogged down and give up, or not even try.

In posting here to begin with, I was perhaps wondering aloud, waiting for echoes. I thought I was missing something and while I think about it, I do often look at comments here, trying to get my mind to "see" certain things that seemed to be not yet present. (You ideas certainly suggest some nice touches, so thanks for that, also).

You & others here have mentioned the layout/mockup, before commencing, which is a great idea to try and find an overall sense of things. Easier to change things on paper, as opposed to fixing things later, on plaster. ;-)

My thanks,
Pat

It seems as though you are pretty far along, probably too far along for my 2 cents but . . . I can't give you an example of this but I can give you an interesting what if. A few days after D-Day Ike was flown over the battlefield in a modified P-51 B (modified to have two seats.) The P51 was named "The Stars Look Down". Of course nothing happened to the plane but if it had you can bet that the Americans would pull out all the stops to get to the plane, and the Germans would, if they got a glimpse of it, be interested in a rather different looking P51.

Jowady,

Thanks for your note, and the great story, about Ike - an intriguing what-if scenario. I had read on Wikipedia about the Mechelen Incident, which in fact reads like a "Three Stooges go to War" script, involving a downed plane with an officer aboard (with documents) and a pilot who apparently had isolated the gas flow from the engine by error. That was after he had gotten off course...

Right now, I'm planning the diorama and I have an idea, though not yet a strong story line. That's my biggest problem now, so please free at anytime to pass along great stories like the one that you did. Meanwhile, I need to study as many finished dioramas as I can, to see how the more accomplished artists here construct their work.

Thanks, again.
Pat