I know that most contest have OOTB (out of the box) cat. and usually another cat. for PE's (photo etched) but what impresses judges more: extreme detail or the fact of only using what the manufacture supplies? Reason why I am asking is, I am closing in on the stage that if I want to use PE parts I better start getting them ordered for my Taush Panzer III. I keep flip flopping on which way to go, either way I choose I want to hopefully compete with this model. Thanks in advance for any advise on this subject.

Ox

Welcome to the site!
Im not a judge but think that the judges will look at each catergory seperately on on each individual models merits. It would be unfair for a judge to lean toward oob because that impresses him more than after sales add ons and vice versa. As for which way you want to go then again this is a personal desicion depending on what you want to achieve and in many cases what you can afford!
Im sure what ever way you go many, if not all of us will be interested to see what you've done.
happy modelling.

For the larger shows, It is always a question of cleanliness of build first, and then how much of the kitchen sink you threw at the kit second. Smaller shows where the judges are entrants in another catagory is another thing.. artistic presentation is imporrttant then.

Still, a perfectly built ootb kit can beat the uber-kit..

But if you do a really good job with some aftermarket, it's hard to tell it's there.
A small brag book, with onprogres photos showing the detail parts will help.

Mike

Have to agree totally with mar6874. Judges cant compare an OOB kit to one with every aftermarket set available on the other. They are two different classes. As to which one one you compete in, is entirely up to your self.
You should look for a list of points that judges look for in both categories and keep these in mind as you build. Personally I think you should build for yourself, enjoy it and if you feel you have made a good job enter the kit for funs sake. Building just to compete can often cause frustation if judges dont "favour" your model. I have read horror stories where Xs kit was much better than Zs kit but his was weathered more and judge Y seemed to prefer weathering eventhough Zs kit had so many faults. Remember the judges decision is final, but this opening another hornets nest! Good luck in whatever you decide to do, but foremost, enjoy what you do..... build for yourself!

I judged in most of the armor categories at Patcon a couple weeks ago. What knocked most of the second cut armor out was poorly aligned tracks. What judges are expected to look at using IPMS rules are basics first: alignment, construction, finish, decalling. Get the basics right and you're well on your way competitively. More weight is given to the basics than accurizing and percise color matching. Adding extras is fine, but is also a great way to increase the likelihood of error.

But ultimately, you must build to make yourself happy with the results. If youwant to keep your kit simple and OOB, that's fine. If you want to super detail it, that's fine. There have been many times an OOB model has taken a place award, even first, over superdetailed models with construction errors.

Wise words Al, and this is the way that in my view it should be. I'm quite disappointed with what happerns down here because, as far as I can see, we only have two events in Italy where you can attend a contest being judged the way you said. I've been invited a couple of times to judge in contests involved in particular for the technicalities a person who spent ten years on AFVs can evaluate. In all cases the other judges had really "funny" judjement criteria:
- OOB: no consideration of how the kit was built, only how extreme the weathering was. The most the best. I mean an olive drab tank with black wash around rivets and the rivets were almost white
- Mod kits: if a model was new it was judged better than an old one, if a model had one or more PE/aftermarket sets on it it was ok, the most the best also there. Scratchbuilding was considered something for "poors" so it was hardly considered.
In both cases if its a friend or a friend of a friend this will be a plus.
Once when they were giving the best of show to an M113 who was built an painted quite well, but it had only the roadwheels covered in mud (and it was done very well) whithout any other part of it with mud on and I objected that I never saw a vehichle "getting dirt" like that in real life I was the #?@! breaker and I had no idea of what I was saying and so on. So from that very day on nobody call me again to judge...
I hope for the hobby that in your countries thing go the proper way.
Ciao


P.S.: from that day if I go in a contest with one of my model they don't even look at it, but if I ask some friends to go there with my models sometimes they win something

I agree with what Scoccia is saying. I have been dumbfounded at the juding I have seen. I was present during the judging and at times it was almost comical what the judge was looking at.

Of course it depends on where you are, but my experiences have been a bit negative so far. Actually, I have wone first in the contests in question, so I'm not speaking out of anger or sour grapes.

To be honest, I'm wondering weather or not I sould even enter a kit this year at the large show near me. I probably will, but plan to stay well clear of the judging, not worry about the outcome, and hope to see some nice models.

In answer to the original question, I build how I want. For me, that means a bit of PE (tool clamps, engine screens, etc.), aftermarket tracks to replace any rubber bands, and maybe a metal barrel. A contest only last a few hours. I hope to be able to enjoy my model on display longer than that!

Steve

Might I suggest you offer to help with the judging at this show, of course, you won't be judging the class you enter. You will get look very closely at stuff AND relaly hear what the judges are saying and looking at. It really is an education. I think I've become more competitive when I enter contests as a result of judging and when I offer suggestions here, much of them come from having eyes trained to judge.

All great replies and have to agree with them all. I have had different experiences with different venues. My local Long Island IPMS show breaks the catorgories into Allied and Axis and time period they were in. There is not an OOTB cat at this show, and judge each model against each other and not a standard. I prefer shows where you are judged more on a standard and not against other modellers who may be higher skilled in certain areas. I think it is good for the hobby to promote appreciation for modellers who are either just starting out, or learning new techniques. I personally feel there is nothing wrong with building OOTB, and it doesn't make a model less attarctive becuase there is not any PE or extra detail. With the likes of Tamiya's and Dragon's kits, a OOTB model can be a mastrepiece IMO. I believe each person should model in the way he/she feels most comfortable, and should not feel they need to spend an extra 20 hours on a model to get that WOW effect.

Cheers

Rob

Each club, even IPMS affiliates, chooses how to break down their categories and whether to have OOB or not. Most do have an OOB award as part of the package. Again, it is up to the local club to go open (against a standard) or 1-2-3 (best on the table). Each point has its good and bad points. Open allows for excellence to be rewarded while 1-2-3 means the judges often have to look for the fatla flaw that's going to separate first from second. 1-2-3 allows the club to know exactly how many awards will be enough while open needs to ahve a lot of awards in reserve. Classes are broken out more in 1-2-3 while open needs very little classification and may have classification based on skill level. 1-2-3 konws there will be a best in each class, while open could leave you with no golds being given out because no one met the standard. Open seems to be much more labor intensive since each model is examined while 1-2-3 many kits can be elliminated inte first cut and only the more serious contenders are studied in detail. Open elilminates the debate of sweeps/no sweeps, since whoever meets the standard get rewarded.

Oh don't get me wrong Al, I have no problem with having a head to head competition. I just feel it doesn't give lesser skilled modellers a chance to get some recognition, especially when all are judged against each other regardless of skill. All in all I enjoy entering in shows regardless of the process.

Cheers

Rob

Good food for thought guys Thanks... I can see where you are coming from, and even though most people who enter contest would like to do well, it is not my top priorty. I have built both OOB and PE and I'm usually happy with what I end up with. In my own mind I guess I am just not sure what I'm more proud of. For example I have a couple of shovels that I dearly love, one original and the other PE on first glance you would think they are from the same kit. Only seriously studying the two would would you noticed the extra detail on the PE, but then I think look how good I got the orginal shovel looking and that impresses me too. I guess in the long run it all depends on the person or persons doing the judging.

I guess I could always build the model twice on OOB and the other PE and see how the two compair. (Hey I feel a staggard formation Dio coming on) Thanks again, I should be posting some pixs soon!

Ox

PS - One other thing that I do is that I keep a small record of my work in progress in a small notebook. That way for myself and others I can always answere correctly any questions like hours spent, how many days it took, ect. I find the info very useful for future builds. Hey more references the better

Nting that you detailed out a shovel or added other scratch detail on your registration sheet helps the judges, who might not notice the shovel at firsrt glance, make their decisions as they struggle to decide who gets what palce. (I make up sheets for this at home and just print the ones I need and attach those at registration time. Tjat way, I don't have to try to remember what I did. You could copy from your info booklet, if it's on your computer and bullet the details/changes.)

As a judge, I judge the models within their own class. Skills of construction are still the basis for judging. In fact, both the judging rules for IPMS and AMPS are great guidlines for monitoring one's work whether competing or not.
I enter my stuff into open catagories even though some of them could be OOTB. Once I enter them, I do not worry about any wins. Just having something that looks like it belongs with the rest is good enough for me. My object in entering is to keep my skills improving. It is so easy to let them slide without really attaining the very best you can do. That is my overall goal. To be the best modeler I can possibly be
capnjock

Thanks captnjock! That is some good advice! It fits with the way I want to approach a contest , not caring if I win anything but being to hold my own dose. I think I am going to approach this project as an OOB first then replace any areas of the tank with PE parts if needed.
Ox

Oxanti:

Believe me when I say that adding a PE set does NOT give an edge to any model in a contest. If anything, it gives more opportunities to screw up (glue blobs, misallignment, etc.). In any well-judged show, the judges look at how consistently a model is detailed -- they don't give extra points just because someone used aftermarlet parts.

Those of us who have been to many, many contests can tell stories of great judging and crap judging. I think a lot of it has to do with judge preparation. If a contest has a good head judge, he'll get all of his judges together before the judging begins and give them a good briefing.

During this briefing, the head judge should break the judges into teams. He should try to break up "buddies" and get a mix of experience on each judging team.

The head judge should also lay out priorities: i.e., Basic modeling skills are considered first; allignment is important; all wheels should touch the table top; clear parts should be clear; seams and sinkholes should be filled; etc.

Finishes should be even and consistent. Judges shouldn't nit-pick about exact color matches. Outrageous or unusual colors or color schemes should be justified with reference. Decals and other markings should be even and not silvered.

Most judges won't know what came in the kit and what was aftermarket or scratchbuilt, so the builder should note this on the entry form.

Also, contest entrants need to understand that just because they forked out $60 for a kit and $140 for aftermarket parts, that doesn't mean that their model will win anything. If the basics are not done well, they will not win. Also, as I said before, detail should be consistent. I've seen models where the builder added a $40 PE set, yet neglected to do simple details, like drilling out gun barrels and exhaust pipes -- mods that are allowed even on OOB models.

Thanks Bob. This is giving me an idea on how a contest is judged. I have only been to a couple of local contest many years back but I never enter an entry. I am not sure of any local contest anymore, Is there a site that post contest? I am sure there is something on the web that list these events. I have been so tuned into this web site that I have not had the need to search the web for other sites. Thanks a bunch for everything.

Greg "Ox"

This site has a contest forum, as does Missing Links and Track Link. Of course, these are dependent upon someone from a contest or club to post the info. You can also post queries: "Are there any contests in/around (insert your city here)?"

FineScale Modeler has a list of up-coming contests, as do the big model organization pubs, such as IPMS Journal and AMPS Boresight.

The best thing to do is ask at the local hobby shops. Most will have fliers for upcoming shows or at least know who is organizing what in your area. Also, when you get to a contest, look for fliers for other shows in the area.