Take a look at this picture. http://www.archives.gov/research/african-americans/ww2-pictures/images/african-americans-wwii-033.jpg

It appears to be a early model of the M5 Stuart, in Germany in April 1945, with a later model turret. It has the curved section on the turret protecting the machine gunner that shows up on some 1944-1945 Stuarts. But, the fenders show it to be a early model.

Does anybody know anything about this meld of a Stuart? I have also seen the same sort of thing listed for sale as being built in 1944, with the same turret configuration.

Both Tamiya and AFV Club show the later model of the M5A1 Stuart with the same turret, but with different track fender covering.

I am making a early model of the M5, but want to represent the Stuart in the picture of the 761st Tank Bn., as shown in the picture. Any info would be helpful.

TIA

Can you be a little more descriptive on what makes the fenders on this vehicle an "early" type versus a late "type"? I've looked at some photos of late production vehicles and the fenders look the same as those in the photo.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
Toadman's Tank Pictures

Both Tamiya and AFV Club issued M5 models that I see designated as "late" models. They both have the fenders over the treads extending over the front of the treads and partly down on the sides over the top of the treads. The kits and M5s that are designated as "early" have fenders over the treads that do not cover in any way the sides or front of the treads. The fenders of the early models actually end back of the front tread.

This is another example of the "meld" I am perplexed by.

http://www.armyjeeps.net/EricM5tank/1944_m5a1_stuart_light_tank.htm

Hope this clarifies things. Look forward to your knowledgeable input.

Ahhh! What I believe you are calling the "fenders" are correctly called the "sand shields". These are removable and could be fitted to any M5A1 Stuart, early or late. What your two photos show is a late M5A1 Stuart with just the factory installed fenders in place. These fenders remain with the vehicle and the sand shields are a kit of parts that are added to and around the fenders. If you look closely at the second photo you can see some bolt holes on the vertical edges of the fenders. The sand shields attach there (and other places).

Many, many Stuarts removed their sand shields to reduce the chances of muck getting trapped under the sand shields.

There were similar sand shield kits produced for Shermans, but in NW Europe these were also almost always removed.

HTH

Paul

Hot dang Paul! Thanks for the info. Makes sense. Still, I wonder why I see M5's with the curved gunner protection on the side of the turret and others without it?

Also, does anybody have a picture of the backside of the curved gunner shield? I will try to add it to my AFV M5 that is on the way, and can use the info on how it looks from the back. Any good models done with this feature that you could share photos of? OR, calling TOADMAN!!

Hey Arthur,

Since I'm conducting my own research into M5A1s let throw this out there for what it is worth regarding the "curved gunner protection". As I understand the curved protection is more indicative of late model M5A1s and the turrets without are the early models. Now as I'm still learning all this so I could be wrong. Also another tall tail sign of early vs. late is the addition of a large storage box mounted on the rear hull plate for late M5A1s. However as this storage box can be removed I would not base if a M5 is late or not on only that.

Squadron books publishes and excellent walk around of the M5 family of light tanks and if you can I suggest picking up a copy. Additionally I do have some good photos from the web and shots taken form a local tank farm here in Virginia. If you need anything shoot me a note.

Lastly check out the campaigns tab on this web site. There is a light tanks campaign scheduled to begin on January first that you might want to enlist for...I did and it should be a blast...no pun intended...will maybe a little.

Good Luck

You won't see any M5s with the AAMG mount armor because that was only fitted to the elongated turret and a tank with an elongated turret is, by definition, an M5A1. Now, there were some M5A1s with the armor and folding AAMG mount, and some with no armor and the telscoping M20 mount. (The folding mount was the later version.) If you wanted to label things there are only three real versions: M5, early M5A1, and late M5A1. AFV Club has made models of the latter two; there have been no plastic M5 kits in 1/35.

If you have ordered an "early" M5A1 you would really need to do several things beyond the mount to make a "late" tank. You are probably better off finding a photo of an earlier M5A1 and modeling it..

KL

Well, the gunner's shield is one of the recognition features of the late production M5A1s. Early M5A1s did not have it. It's as siumple as that. Another feature of the late M5A1s is the rear hull stowage basket.

There are a LOT of small detail differences between the late and early M5A1s in addition to these two main differences.

The shield is two simple pieces of welded plate with the folding MG mechanism inside. It's open at the back and bottom with a single support across the bottom rear corner to the turret wall.

If you have the "Late M5A1" kit on order, this will all become clear as it is a pretty darn good representation of the original and all the main late features are included. If you have the "Early M5A1" kit coming, then don't worry about it as it's not worth the hassle trying to convert one to the other.

If you want a reasonable r4eview of the kit, I did one for the AMPS review site. You can see it at:

http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/reviews/showReview.aspx?ID=1632&Type=FB

You might have to register for the site, but it's free & simple. I have discovered a couple more small discrepancies that I can pass on if you want.

Paul

Thanks for the info Paul. Accessed your review and bookmarked it. As I said, I have already bought a early M5. I wonder if the Tamiya M5a1 turret would fit on the early model AFV club body? Has anybody tried this?

>>As I said, I have already bought a early M5.
The early M5A1, just to be clear. As Kurt says, there realy are only three versions. There is no "early" M5.

>>I wonder if the Tamiya M5a1 turret would fit on the early model AFV club body? Has anybody tried this?
Dear Ghod, please don't do this. The Tamiya turret is not at all up to the standards of a modern kit and is not terribly accurate on top of that. In addition, you would still need the rear stowage basket (and while it is possible to take it off, I've never seen a late M5A1 without one or an early M5A1 with one added) plus a lot of other small changes to make a proper late M5A1.

If you really, really want a late M5A1, buy that kit and don't try to convert the early to the late. It's not impossible, but with the actual kit available, why bother?

Paul