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Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
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It May Sound Like Heresy, but....
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 07:36 AM UTC
Now, i've been using the Hornet Head Sets for years. There isn't IMO, anything better. Unfortunately, at a time when i'm needing 3-4 sets of British sets for a couple of projects, the price has put me off.

Now, i'm NOT criticising Hornet, costs in everything have increased and yes, you pay for quality. Unfortunately it's difficulr to justify around 10 Euros (everything has to come by mail for me) for a set of 5 heads...

It's time one of two things happened:

1) The 'styrene' manufacturers encounter a much better process for detail in their heads.

2) A new 'Resin' manufacturer finds a cheaper way to produce heads in 1/35th scale.

Thoughts?
Belt_Fed
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: February 02, 2008
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 07:53 AM UTC
How much demand is there for a business to produce a product for such a small market? Maybe hornet has its price because it wouldnt servive as a company if they sold their profucts for so cheap? Everyone buys a fridge, but not to many of the general public buys metal track links....

Just my thoughts!
ProfessorP
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Minnesota, United States
Joined: February 20, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 01:08 PM UTC
Jim, you said it yourself...there isn't anything better when it comes to replacement heads. You have to pay for that kind of quality. I don't know that there is enough demand for the plastics manufacturers to invest in the molds needed to develop head sets for such specific purposes. And few resin manufactures will try to encroach on Hornet's clear position as industry leader...the cost differential wouldn't be that much.

Hornet's product and range is outstanding. i think that's worth a few extra bucks (or euros) to keep them going as long as possible.
retiredyank
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Arkansas, United States
Joined: June 29, 2009
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 08:05 PM UTC
This sounds like a job for Alanger/ICM, Trumpeter or Dragon. With their plastic kit sales as a secure income, they could break into the market of figure conversions. However, it is a limited market. Personally, I would like to see more artillery kits. Yet, this most likely will not happen. The demand is too low for one company to focus on strictly spgs and howitzers. You have some other options for figure detailing, such as TanK, The Bodi, Royal Model and Legend Productions to name a few.
Or, you could sculpt your own heads in wax or clay. This is beyond my abilities, as of this moment, but I do look forward to honing my skills.
exer
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Dublin, Ireland
Joined: November 27, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 10:22 PM UTC
I know what you mean Jim with disposable income down it's hard to justify spending that much on a head set.

I suppose I'm lucky in that I bought a lot of hornet heads when they were cheaper and I had more money anyway Also my LHS stocks hornet and if I buy something else as well I usually get a discount.

That said- I don't always feel the need to use Hornet heads I like some of the recent Miniart and Masterbox heads- the only area that lacks detail is around the ears.

The dragon gen two heads are great but they have that hard to eradicate join between front and back.

TANK heads I have found two big for most 1/35 figures. I have used Legend's german head sets which I like and they're good value with 12 heads for €5.10 and free shipping from Lucky Model- not much use to you Jim as you're looking for British sets- have you checked the price of the Ultracast and Resicast British sets- they're good quality and may be cheaper
exer
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Dublin, Ireland
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Posted: Saturday, September 24, 2011 - 10:33 PM UTC
Here are the resicast From Hlj the sets work out at €8.75

ultracast 12.95 Cdn $ which is €9.33
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 12:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

TANK heads I have found two big for most 1/35 figures. I have used Legend's german head sets which I like and they're good value with 12 heads for €5.10 and free shipping from Lucky Model- not much use to you Jim as you're looking for British sets- have you checked the price of the Ultracast and Resicast British sets- they're good quality and may be cheaper

Here are the resicast From Hlj the sets work out at €8.75

ultracast 12.95 Cdn $ which is €9.33


I got a load of the Legend sets when they first became available - I've found them very useful

I checked out HLJ and Hobby Easy earlier, thanks though fo posting these links.

Personally, I think the way to go now, is to see what Masterbox/ICM & MiniArt think of doing combined Head/Equipment sets (according to nationality) in a box.

I'll keep you all posted to their response!
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 01:44 AM UTC
If I am honest Jim I would swallow the extra cost and stick with Hornet as at least you know what you will be getting and that it will be pain free.
Karl187
#284
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Joined: October 04, 2006
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 05:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If I am honest Jim I would swallow the extra cost and stick with Hornet as at least you know what you will be getting and that it will be pain free.


I agree with you here Darren, and I also think Jim has a point about price. However, as most of us have pointed out- there's none better than Hornet (IMO anyway).

Still, the Zvezda Russian Paratroopers in Afghanistan set had a couple of decent heads (one was atrocious, big seam down the middle) and I think the styrene manufactuers are, in general, getting better at head sculpts. I think some of these companies should consider 'head sets' as I think they would prove quite popular, especially if combined with equipment of various sorts.
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 07:56 PM UTC
Those images posted by Brian, are truly impressive and sent me off in another direction of thought.

Now, in a handful of figures, DML produced them in DS (Dragon Styrene ) which was an interesting combination of Vinyl and Styrene. The results, in my opinion, were very impressive, the material was remarkably easy to work with, accepted paint well (with proper undercoating) and, equally important, held VERY sharp detail.

Now, i've NO idea whatsoever about the problems that moulding in a Vinyl-type material could conceivably cause or, in fact, whether it's commercially viable if a company is set up for 'conventional' styrene.

I am coming to the conclusion that it DOES seem to be a material which may be relatively unexplored within t'our' particular area of interest.

Any thoughts on this?
Spiderfrommars
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Milano, Italy
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 08:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Those images posted by Brian, are truly impressive and sent me off in another direction of thought.

Now, in a handful of figures, DML produced them in DS (Dragon Styrene ) which was an interesting combination of Vinyl and Styrene. The results, in my opinion, were very impressive, the material was remarkably easy to work with, accepted paint well (with proper undercoating) and, equally important, held VERY sharp detail.

Now, i've NO idea whatsoever about the problems that moulding in a Vinyl-type material could conceivably cause or, in fact, whether it's commercially viable if a company is set up for 'conventional' styrene.

I am coming to the conclusion that it DOES seem to be a material which may be relatively unexplored within t'our' particular area of interest.

Any thoughts on this?


Vynil reduces the undercut problems (...final part is floppy so it's easy to extract from the mould) and this advantage could enhance details reproduction. Drawback are that vinyl is hard to paint, hard to glue, almost impossible to putty. Sometime parts can be slightly deformed. Engineering tolerance of vynil are wider than the styrene ones, so producing kit parts made on vinyl could create many fitting problems. In a 1/10 kit those issues are less important, in a smaller model (1/35 ) with smaller parts, tollerance problems would be impossible to solve.
In my humble opinion a larger adoption of vinyl parts won't be possible unless a new kind of "vinyl" especially conceived for kit modelling, it's synthesized
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 09:05 PM UTC
First of thanks for that explanation - I now see things much clearer. This bit struck me:


Quoted Text

Engineering tolerance of vynil are wider than the styrene ones, so producing kit parts made on vinyl could create many fitting problems.


We're only talking about heads (and possibly hands as well ) so, I don't think the tolerance would be an issue.

So, with the use of DS, (which is a very easy material to work with and hold detail beautifully) , how DID DML do it?

Questions, Questions, Questions....
HerrGray
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Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Joined: June 28, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 10:01 PM UTC
Hi,

Hornet head are top notch stuff and though 10 Euro per set is a bit high I think their heads are worth the price... It just get a bit painfull when you do have to buy 3 sets... but you also have a few heads left over for the parts bin... you might also consider trading the heads you wont use... Another manufature out there making really good stuff is TANK. There stuff is really top notch and a set of heads cost 5.95 Euro. Though their range is a bit limited to German and Russian themes.

Gray
Hisham
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Al Qahirah, Egypt / لعربية
Joined: July 23, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 10:06 PM UTC
Legend has a couple of head sets that sell for around $8 for 12 heads (Price is at Luckymodel). Why are their heads so much cheaper? Is resin that much cheaper in Korea? Or is it because Legend is a larger company than the usual AM companies.. and as such they can buy material in large quantities at a lower price? Maybe a company like Hornet could make the masters and then have them cast in large quantities in Korea?

Just wondering!

Hisham
Spiderfrommars
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Milano, Italy
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Posted: Sunday, September 25, 2011 - 10:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

First of thanks for that explanation - I now see things much clearer. This bit struck me:


Quoted Text

Engineering tolerance of vynil are wider than the styrene ones, so producing kit parts made on vinyl could create many fitting problems.


We're only talking about heads (and possibly hands as well ) so, I don't think the tolerance would be an issue.

So, with the use of DS, (which is a very easy material to work with and hold detail beautifully) , how DID DML do it?

Questions, Questions, Questions....


Yes, regarding heads, hands (...and bare-chested?) probably using the ds track material would be an improvment (otherwise for tracks DML should make again magic tracks in my opinion... ). It would be possible using oil colors on vinyl parts without problems? Is vinyl proof to turpenoid or enamel thinners? How about the time durability?...I think that a good vinyl would be good also to reproduce tarps and gun mantlets

Anyway i still don't know why in figure sets there are no optional hands and heads. It doesn't seem to me that would be a big problem for the companies doing that...
Plasticbattle
#003
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Donegal, Ireland
Joined: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Monday, September 26, 2011 - 01:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

We're only talking about heads (and possibly hands as well ) so, I don't think the tolerance would be an issue.

Actually small items like heads and especailly hands would be a worst case, so tolerences would be critical. Dragon do seem to have a suitable and stable level with their DS for these subjects though. Slightly flexible yet enough styrene included to allow cementing and minor fixes. The first DS subjects were not so good though ... not enough styrene, and made trying to remove seams and sand amsot impossible even accepting paint was a problem. Pure vinyl or a synthetic alternative would not be a good idea where the quality of details would be affected unless they could mold them without seams.

As I manage to do less and less each year, I accept the cost for the best heads available, They not only look the part but are easier to paint.
As injected heads are getting slightly better, it may not be that necessary to replace every head, especially a diorama where some figures only "make up the scene". With those dealing with the actual storyline and need to have a certain expression, Hornet are hard to beat. But not every Hornet set is needed either. A few sets with general expressions (bare heads) work perfectly. They can be adapted to take whatever helmet or head gear the injected kit proposes, and with a little scuplted hair, can actually work even better ... adding to the fit and originality.
I got some Historex 54mm hand sets and they might even be an option. Pretty good price for 16 hand sets (I think) and can be shortened slightly to suit. Great quality!!
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