Hi guys.
I've bought the Trumpeter ASU-85 kit and I've been collecting reference pics for it. According to very reliable sources, track links depicted in Trumpeter kit have a flaw because they don't have holes on their teeth.
But looking at my walkaround pics there's still something which is puzzling me.
These are the track links of a Russian exemplar
As you can see, there are no holes on the track link teeth.
Well, it could be a difference due the restoration, so the tracks were probably subsituted by PT-76 tracks, which are very similar to the ASU-85 ones.
But if I look at these pics of a Polish exemplar there is a detail which make me doubt
As you can notice, some track links have the holes one some other ones don't have them...
Could it be possible that ASU-85 had two kind of tracks, one with the holes and one without them?
Or perhaps also on the Polish exemplar some track links have been substituted with PT-76 parts?
What's your opinion about?
Thanks in advance for any contributions
Яusso-Soviэt Forum
Russian or Soviet vehicles/armor modeling forum.
Russian or Soviet vehicles/armor modeling forum.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Jacques Duquette
ASU-85 travck links question
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - 07:36 PM UTC
zapper
Skĺne, Sweden
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
Armorama: 734 posts
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
Armorama: 734 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 05:28 AM UTC
I'll stick my head out and say that both can be used:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VqdcanXhMyU/RsolGm5aoOI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/vAOjiSUgk7k/s1600-h/Save0058.JPG
... or am I fooled by the angle?
Cheers,
/E
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_VqdcanXhMyU/RsolGm5aoOI/AAAAAAAAAOQ/vAOjiSUgk7k/s1600-h/Save0058.JPG
... or am I fooled by the angle?
Cheers,
/E
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 05:40 AM UTC
That's exactly what I suspect Erik
In my very humble opinion PT-76 and ASU-85 tracks were interchangeable, so both tanks could use track with holes or without them.
I've also seen PT-76 exemplars with holed tracks
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Soviet_PT-76_model2_2.jpg
Thanks a lot for the pics
Do you have perhaps some other to share?
Cheers
In my very humble opinion PT-76 and ASU-85 tracks were interchangeable, so both tanks could use track with holes or without them.
I've also seen PT-76 exemplars with holed tracks
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Soviet_PT-76_model2_2.jpg
Thanks a lot for the pics
Do you have perhaps some other to share?
Cheers
juge75
Jasz-Nagkyun-Szolnok, Hungary
Joined: May 02, 2009
KitMaker: 843 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Joined: May 02, 2009
KitMaker: 843 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 08:34 AM UTC
I can see the resemblance.
Indeed, the PT-76 Track, only lighter (hole).
Both are used in the vehicle.
A simplified version of the air transportation is specially designed.
But not all vehicles used in the original remit.
So the hole, no hole, and an appropriate order.
Both existed in a real vehicle. (even in combination).
For example, the PT-76 vehicle with other vehicles on the track was a frequent member fracture.
And it is not always used original parts, so it could be the PT-76 tracks from the ASU-85.
Indeed, the PT-76 Track, only lighter (hole).
Both are used in the vehicle.
A simplified version of the air transportation is specially designed.
But not all vehicles used in the original remit.
So the hole, no hole, and an appropriate order.
Both existed in a real vehicle. (even in combination).
For example, the PT-76 vehicle with other vehicles on the track was a frequent member fracture.
And it is not always used original parts, so it could be the PT-76 tracks from the ASU-85.
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 12:28 PM UTC
Thanks a million Gábor
So, it would be correct if I depicted an exemplar with a mix of "light" and "heavy" track links?
So, it would be correct if I depicted an exemplar with a mix of "light" and "heavy" track links?
Jacques
Minnesota, United States
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 04:02 PM UTC
The problem is two-fold:
1. Restored vehicles parks, in Eastern Europe especially, are very underfunded, so they make due with whatever they have on hand. Do not trust museum pieces immediately.
2. The ASU-85 started out as the SU-85 and initially was meant to be a anti-tank/assault gun. It was only after a long development with delays, the 85mm quickly became too anemic for its intended use, the chassis could not be used for a upgraded gun, and missiles were coming into vogue...then it was relegated only to airborne use almost immediately after the first few vehicles rolled out of the plants. This does not mean it was not used in its intended role immediately, and possibly early with PT-76 track, but it would have been withdrawn quickly if it had been. I am, however, solidly convinced that once it was relegated to airborne use only, and redesignated ASU-85, the lightened tracks became standard and exclusive.
I am not sure that PT-76 track can be swapped and used on the ASU-85, but I would say it looks like it could. I just don't think that it was used in regular service of the ASU-85. I would be happy to be proven wrong so that I do not need new tracks for the kit.
1. Restored vehicles parks, in Eastern Europe especially, are very underfunded, so they make due with whatever they have on hand. Do not trust museum pieces immediately.
2. The ASU-85 started out as the SU-85 and initially was meant to be a anti-tank/assault gun. It was only after a long development with delays, the 85mm quickly became too anemic for its intended use, the chassis could not be used for a upgraded gun, and missiles were coming into vogue...then it was relegated only to airborne use almost immediately after the first few vehicles rolled out of the plants. This does not mean it was not used in its intended role immediately, and possibly early with PT-76 track, but it would have been withdrawn quickly if it had been. I am, however, solidly convinced that once it was relegated to airborne use only, and redesignated ASU-85, the lightened tracks became standard and exclusive.
I am not sure that PT-76 track can be swapped and used on the ASU-85, but I would say it looks like it could. I just don't think that it was used in regular service of the ASU-85. I would be happy to be proven wrong so that I do not need new tracks for the kit.
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 09:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
1. Restored vehicles parks, in Eastern Europe especially, are very underfunded, so they make due with whatever they have on hand. Do not trust museum pieces immediately.
Yes, it's sbsolutely true, but pics with "heavy" tracks which I' ve seen were so many, that I suspected it wasn't just a matter of approximate restorations
Quoted Text
2. The ASU-85 started out as the SU-85 and initially was meant to be a anti-tank/assault gun. It was only after a long development with delays, the 85mm quickly became too anemic for its intended use, the chassis could not be used for a upgraded gun, and missiles were coming into vogue...then it was relegated only to airborne use almost immediately after the first few vehicles rolled out of the plants. This does not mean it was not used in its intended role immediately, and possibly early with PT-76 track, but it would have been withdrawn quickly if it had been. I am, however, solidly convinced that once it was relegated to airborne use only, and redesignated ASU-85, the lightened tracks became standard and exclusive.
That's a very convincing theory in my opinion and me too, I think that when the tank was relegated only to airborne use, it carried only lightened tracks.
It would be necessary to have more in action pictures, but unfortunately they seem quite hard to find
Thanks a million for the explication
Posted: Friday, November 25, 2011 - 03:54 AM UTC
I think the weight route is the most plausible explanation- the lighter the tracks the lighter the load the easier it would be to air deploy it in a number of aircraft. Perhaps what might have been planned was for it to be dropped/deployed via aircraft with lightened tracks then, at the first oppurtunity, re-equipped on the ground with the heavier tracks which would probably have lasted longer. Anyway, thats just me 0.2 cents.
zapper
Skĺne, Sweden
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
Armorama: 734 posts
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
Armorama: 734 posts
Posted: Friday, November 25, 2011 - 04:16 AM UTC
I might add that other ASU-85's in Checkoslovakia '68 have the tracks with the holes so the one without might be an exception.
Cheers,
/E
Cheers,
/E
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Friday, November 25, 2011 - 11:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I might add that other ASU-85's in Checkoslovakia '68 have the tracks with the holes so the one without might be an exception.
Cheers,
/E
It must be so
Jacques
Minnesota, United States
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Friday, November 25, 2011 - 06:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I think the weight route is the most plausible explanation- the lighter the tracks the lighter the load the easier it would be to air deploy it in a number of aircraft. Perhaps what might have been planned was for it to be dropped/deployed via aircraft with lightened tracks then, at the first oppurtunity, re-equipped on the ground with the heavier tracks which would probably have lasted longer. Anyway, thats just me 0.2 cents.
Breaking track, and replacing it, is a back breaking, wearing job. You would immobilize your vehicle for hours, have to drop the tracks to replace the lightened ones and thus INCREASE your total drop weight per vehicle, and fatigue your crews. Never mind demoralizing them. No, you pretty much run with what you are dropped in Airborne, and consumables are far more valuable than tracks when the mission is measured in hours or days as many airborne ops are...but it was a goof thought. IF the SU-85 (note SU-85) was used initially, and not intended for airdrop but say moved by rail to a railhead, then the heavier tracks would be ok and probably better with a lot of initial road movement.
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Friday, November 25, 2011 - 07:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI think the weight route is the most plausible explanation- the lighter the tracks the lighter the load the easier it would be to air deploy it in a number of aircraft. Perhaps what might have been planned was for it to be dropped/deployed via aircraft with lightened tracks then, at the first oppurtunity, re-equipped on the ground with the heavier tracks which would probably have lasted longer. Anyway, thats just me 0.2 cents.
Breaking track, and replacing it, is a back breaking, wearing job. You would immobilize your vehicle for hours, have to drop the tracks to replace the lightened ones and thus INCREASE your total drop weight per vehicle, and fatigue your crews. Never mind demoralizing them. No, you pretty much run with what you are dropped in Airborne, and consumables are far more valuable than tracks when the mission is measured in hours or days as many airborne ops are...but it was a goof thought. IF the SU-85 (note SU-85) was used initially, and not intended for airdrop but say moved by rail to a railhead, then the heavier tracks would be ok and probably better with a lot of initial road movement.
Furthermore to change the tank tracks Russian would have to bring lighter and heavier track links on their aircrafts....that would have meant increasing a lot the cargo Weights. So, if this theory were true, most likely the heavier tracks would have been trasported separately by land and then assembled on the tanks at the beginning of the invasion...Well Karl, to be honest it seems to me too complicate to be true
Posted: Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 12:11 AM UTC
I suppose when you really get down to it changing the tracks in such a manner would be fairly complicated and indeed it would likely be detrimental to a fast-moving airborne op. Thinking out loud doesn't always bear fruit !
Spiderfrommars
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
Armorama: 3,543 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 01:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thinking out loud doesn't always bear fruit !
It happens to me lots of time
Anyway, I think Czech invasion wasn't too wearing for the vehicles
All in all it was an action against civilian "fought" mostly in urban battlefield
The tanks could carry lighter tracks without any problems in my opinion