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Armor/AFV: AA/AT/Artillery
For discussions about artillery and anti-aircraft or anti-tank guns.
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Bronco US 155mm Howitzer M114A1(Vietnam war))
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 07:24 AM UTC

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there were no M114 howitzers used in Vietnam. They were all M1a1's. The M1a1 dosn't have the grooved barrel. Bronco probably built their kit off an M114 gate guard (there are some on Marine bases).



In 1962 the Army redesignated their artillery pieces to avoid the confusion caused by the howitzer, carriage, and recoil mechanism having different model numbers. As noted above, the the M114 series was just the WW II/Korea era 155mm howitzer combination with a new name and sheet metal tag saying "M114" riveted on. Some may have never gotten the tag or never had the ordnance mechanics put them on, but as far as the Army was concerned every 155mm howitzer used in Vietnam was an M114 series. The breech ring was still stamped M1 or M1A1, but it was an M114 series weapon.

The M1A2 cannon (as they redesignated the shooting part) was not developed before Vietnam fell, so there were no "grooved" or M114A2s used in that conflict, but there were M114s.

KL



at Sill (and if there was an M114 to had it would be there) there was no M114's in 1967. I puled guard duty at several of howitzer parking lots back then that were full of 155's. They were itdentical to the ones we used in Vietnam.

When I went to Vietnam in Dec. 67 I told them I hadn't done much on a 155 towed gun, but had shot them for about a week. I went thru an orientation and the called the gun out aa an M1a1. When I went to my perminate party unit they also said they were shooting M1a1's. When the piece I was on was CBL'd, they brought out a beat up M1a1, and it was replaced with one from the states in less than a week. It was a nearly new M1a1 right out of a wharehouse in washington state. My batallion was considered to be a "first strike" outfit out of FT. Bragg,and if the M114 was the latest piece and the greatest piece; they'd been using them. They brought all their equipment with them from the states, and it was an M1a1. I don't ever recall anybody ever calling out that number to be exact, and really never heard of it till the last ten years or so. There's little doubt that the gun existed as there are a few photos out there, but it was as rare as hen's teeth. In I-Corps my unit was followed by the 1st of the 82nd, and they brought their own pigs with them. All were M1a1's. I saw Marines using M1a1's and have seen lots of photos of other units up our way, and every gun was identical to what we were using. Now they might have started calling out the M1a1 as an M114 later, but in Vietnam it was still an M1a1
gary
Thatguy
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 09:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Now they might have started calling out the M1a1 as an M114 later, but in Vietnam it was still an M1a1


Its not unlikely that people still referred to these weapons as M1A1s common parlance, especially since the M1A1 designation was retained for the exact same part of the system, but the M114 designation for the complete weapon were definitely in use by the build-up in Vietnam in 1965. The designation appears clearly in the the July 1963 edition of the artillery branch's professional publication of the day, Artillery Trends: http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/1963/JUL_1963/JUL_1963_FULL_EDITION.pdf
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - 12:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Now they might have started calling out the M1a1 as an M114 later, but in Vietnam it was still an M1a1


Its not unlikely that people still referred to these weapons as M1A1s common parlance, especially since the M1A1 designation was retained for the exact same part of the system, but the M114 designation for the complete weapon were definitely in use by the build-up in Vietnam in 1965. The designation appears clearly in the the July 1963 edition of the artillery branch's professional publication of the day, Artillery Trends: http://sill-www.army.mil/firesbulletin/archives/1963/JUL_1963/JUL_1963_FULL_EDITION.pdf



what I infered was that every piece I saw was called out as an M1a1. That wasn't just in I-Corp, but also at FT Sill. I asked a guy who was up on Ripcord what model 155 he shot a couple hours ago, he he simply said "M1a1." I asked him about shooting an M114, and he asked what it was? That time frame would move up to 69 / 70, and maybe even 1971. Now somebody in the Pentagon might have changed the numbers, but evidently it never reached the end users. It's really not important, and really a technicality.
gary
BigDaddybluesman
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Posted: Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 03:05 PM UTC
I would really appreciate if someone let me know were I can get the barrel and/or at least the Bronco m114A1.

The question seems to me since now I am totally confused is their Korean version really the Vietnam version and their M114A1 not used in Vietnam.

I think it's the jack system that differentiates the 2 guns. Am I correct? I not an Arty gun but I love them just the same.

There's a lot of info in this thread and it just confused me more.

Anyway nobody seems to have the gun or the barrel in the USA.
redleg12
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Posted: Thursday, January 12, 2012 - 11:07 PM UTC
Noah - I have picked up the kit and it is what you are looking for in a VN version

Rounds Complete!!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Friday, January 13, 2012 - 05:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Noah - I have picked up the kit and it is what you are looking for in a VN version

Rounds Complete!!



still have not seen one hit the shelves around here yet. I check the shelves twice a week!
gary
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Friday, January 13, 2012 - 06:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I would really appreciate if someone let me know were I can get the barrel and/or at least the Bronco m114A1.

The question seems to me since now I am totally confused is their Korean version really the Vietnam version and their M114A1 not used in Vietnam.

I think it's the jack system that differentiates the 2 guns. Am I correct? I not an Arty gun but I love them just the same.

There's a lot of info in this thread and it just confused me more.

Anyway nobody seems to have the gun or the barrel in the USA.



Assuming that the Bronco kit is one with a closed breech then I'd say the only real difference is the jack (note: I've never seen an early jack plate). Vietnam versions also used a jack stand affair to shift the trails 360 degrees. Now I cannot remember for the life of me if there was a boss installed to keep the jack stand in place. I doubt it as the gun displaced as much as six inches on the first round, and would have been completely off the stand under the carriage. Remember that 90% of all 155 howitzers shot out of a parapit and also shot the full 360 degrees circle.

In Vietnam, I've seen pigs with many little changes added to them by the end users. Brackets were torched off and others were added. The most common was the bar that extended from the trail to aid in shifting the gun. Some were close to three feet long and others were not there. Ours was about eighteen inchs long at best. Another one that was common (we didn't do this one) was to create an actual seat for the gunner. I've even seen them made with a cushion affair, but guess our gunners were tougher as we made them set on hard steel!
gary
BigDaddybluesman
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Posted: Saturday, January 14, 2012 - 05:52 AM UTC
Thanks Mike, now I know to just have some patience and wait for them to release it. I talked to Maria at Great models and she said they were coming and Great models will contact me. Might as well get the aluminum barrel too when it gets here. I only have 1000 or so other things I can build while waiting.

I did buy 2 of the AFV new M102 105mm towed and it seems to be the real deal for Vietnam. So what do I do with the 2 old Italeri kits and the Dragon M2A1 version I bought plus the Eduard PE sets? I guess it goes on eBay, I hate ebay.

There isn't many pictures with the M114 in Nam. I hate to build something and then find out it was all wrong. Then start to modify it to make it right, that takes the fun out of it for me. I kind of like to know what I have to do from jump street in terms of any mods or upgrades/changes to make it right for that era or unit.
Removed by original poster on 01/14/12 - 18:15:16 (GMT).
Frenchy
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Posted: Saturday, January 14, 2012 - 06:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There isn't many pictures with the M114 in Nam. I hate to build something and then find out it was all wrong.



Just PM me your email and I'll send you some Nam 155mm howitzer pics (whatever the designation )

Frenchy
zapper
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Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 01:49 AM UTC
I picked up my kit today. If anybody have any requests about specific parts that you'd like to see I might be able to upload a pic or two.

Regarding the conclusions in this thread regarding the Vietnam version...

While the Vietnam release is correct for that era the barrel with the groove is wrong, right? I were only used later on if I understand you guys correct.
Both the included plastic barrel and the alu. one have the groove...

(Althought this won't be a problem to me if I go ahead and make a MERDEC painted gun from the '80s...)

Cheers,
/E
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 07:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I picked up my kit today. If anybody have any requests about specific parts that you'd like to see I might be able to upload a pic or two.

Regarding the conclusions in this thread regarding the Vietnam version...

While the Vietnam release is correct for that era the barrel with the groove is wrong, right? I were only used later on if I understand you guys correct.
Both the included plastic barrel and the alu. one have the groove...

(Althought this won't be a problem to me if I go ahead and make a MERDEC painted gun from the '80s...)

Cheers,
/E



all M1 thru tyhe M114 series 155 howitzers have the ground finished barrel. You cannot paint the tube and make it work thru the bearing and seal setup with the cairrage. What you can do is to hand paint the metal tube with a straw colored or even a translucent green finish to give you the correct greased appearence on the tube. We usually used a dark green bearing grease put on kinda thin (to keep the tube from rusting. So the finished barrel should have a rough looking greenish (or brown) to simulate to grease being smeared all over the barrel. After a few shots thru the tube the grease will then be a nasty black, but most of it will be wiped away. Whatever you choose to do the shiney barrel will still show thru.
gary
Frenchy
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Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 10:37 AM UTC
Here are some Vietnam pics showing various degrees of greasiness :




This one is fitted with earlier wheel rims:








Frenchy
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 06:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here are some Vietnam pics showing various degrees of greasiness :




This one is fitted with earlier wheel rims:








Frenchy



starting from the top, you will notice the clean spot on the barrel the is about a foot long. That's a good sign they've been shooting charge one green bag powder as the recoil is very light. Probably shooting less than 3000 yards. Also notice the jack stand under the carriage. This was used to swing the gun around to another azmuth. That style of parapit looks familure, and it may have been either Charlie or Alpha Battery from my old battallion, and the location looks like Ryder on the north rim of the Que Son Valley. But not positive as it could have been another unit moved into one of our old parapits.

Photo two tells me that it was either 1967 or 1968. The howitzer has just be set or is waiting to be lifted via CH46. You will notice the shields and just about anything else that cam be removed is gone to save weight. (they later came out with a heavy lift CH46). Think it's a howitzer from a battery that was attached to the 101st up near Ripcord. I know for sure later in the week. I don't think it was Charlie Battery or the 1st of the 82nd (it was a jump battery for sure)

I have seen that piece before in the third picture. The blue paint stands out, and think it's a far north pig. As you can see it's a well used piece. Parapits are similar to what most in I-Corp looked like (per Div Arty specs), but it's not a Hawk hill piece as it's too dirty. Might be a Marine pig from the yellow # 8 painted on the trail. There were several Marine 155 batterys up in I corps, and their bunkers look like the way marines built them.

Photo four says it all! Notice how there's nobody inbetween the trails! Notice the blast and the kicked up dust. That's a charge seven white bag shooting about 8 miles from the elevation of the barrel Pretty good AG as he's starting to open the breech in full recoil. Have no idea where the location is, but my guess is II-Corps. You will notice the guy bent down to start reaching for the next round as the AG reaches for the handle on the breech. There is another guy with a swab just starting to move forward to the breech. Don't see the rammer staff, but it's probably laying on the ground right under the breech in full recoil. Don't see anybody holding powder, but bet he's just outta the pic.

Photo five tells me this is a unit that didn't move a lot, or else moved via truck. The give away is the lawn chair. Units that moved a lot were never afforded such a luxery. They got to set on sand bags or bomb fuse boxes. Still the piece is well kept on the outside, but still shows signs of heavy useage

Last photo is of a gun that didn't move a lot, and yet was never checked out closely. Looks like it's not shot a ton of rounds like the others have. And most Div's would have frowned on the way they stored the projos. Nobody ever stored powder like that! And put WP in the same bunker with fused HE!!! Also the only folks that got the remote radar things to catch rockets were units that never went where the rockets came in like rain drops. Probably late 68 or 1969 era. The piece in full recoil is a typical well used pig.

gary



Frenchy
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Posted: Sunday, January 15, 2012 - 11:22 PM UTC
thanks for the first-hand info Gary. Here are the corresponding captions :

Picture 1 : Hawk Hill,Vietnam 1969 - A Battery, 3/16 Artillery Battalion.

Picture 2 : LZ West, Hiep Duc,Vietnam 1970 - A Battery, 3/16 Artillery Battalion

Picture 3 : LZ West, Hiep Duc,Vietnam 1970 - A Battery, 3/16 Artillery Battalion

Picture 5 : Artillery Hill, Pleiku 1969

Picture 6 : "a FSB along South China Sea.."

No location given for picture 4...

Frenchy

trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, January 16, 2012 - 05:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

thanks for the first-hand info Gary. Here are the corresponding captions :

Picture 1 : Hawk Hill,Vietnam 1969 - A Battery, 3/16 Artillery Battalion.

Picture 2 : LZ West, Hiep Duc,Vietnam 1970 - A Battery, 3/16 Artillery Battalion

Picture 3 : LZ West, Hiep Duc,Vietnam 1970 - A Battery, 3/16 Artillery Battalion

Picture 5 : Artillery Hill, Pleiku 1969

Picture 6 : "a FSB along South China Sea.."

No location given for picture 4...

Frenchy




I was in the 3rd of the 16th. Bravo to be exact. Alpha was what we always called the "show battery". That's where they'd take the press to see, and they never moved around much. Charlie was the Jump Battery, and my guess is that's Charlie and not Alpha. But on the otherhand a unit out in the bush hasn't got time to paint up the tires and wheels like the gun in the photo. The removal of the shields and spades tells me that the time period was 1967 thru late 1968, and Alpha had never been moved from Hawk Hill in that time frame. Only Bravo & Charlie moved in that time period.

One of the photos called out as an Alpha gun looked like a dead ringer for gun three out at Thien Phouc (A102). That parapit just stuck in my mind, as it was constructed originally by Charlie Battery, and the guys never rebuilt it.
Thien Phouc was located at the southern base of the Hiep Duc Ridge Line, where as West was just accross the Valley from the Northern mass of the Hiep Duc Ridge (about nine miles north of A102).

Looking at the photos you can see the Unit Crest on one of the wheels, and the third photo is LZ West for sure. Charlie constructed those parapits, and the ones in the photo are on the northwest corner. Pretty much strait accross from the quad fifty. I did an OP from that end of West back in Jan 69. Strait behind the piece with the shields removed is Ryder, and that was where Charlie used for a base camp. They were often split into two three gun batterys. With three guns on Ryder and three guns on West you pretty much had controll of everything for a nine mile radius. In 1970 or late 1969 the 196th did an OP over by Hau Duc (base of the Hiep Duc's northern end), and later setup Siberia on the west side of the Hiep Duc. Not a good place to reside! Mary Anne was later built by the 196th, about 15 miles south. Charlie also moved down there with them. They were over run by sappers. That would have been about ten klicks south of A102.

Photos are close to home, and Nolan got it wrong as usual in his book
gary
somtec
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Posted: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 - 08:24 AM UTC
Hi
Sorry for dragging up this old thread but was looking for info on the bronco m114 and this came up, part of the problem here is there is something wrong with the tape measure being used in the photos 25cm 250mm is close to 10 inches, 25.4 mm or 2.54cm equals 1 inch.
Unless of course its the inches that are wrong on the tape in which i'll shutup.
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