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Best kit and Interior for Desert Storm M1A1
ppawlak1
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Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 12:31 PM UTC
Hi Guys !

I would like to build an M1A1 from the 3rd Armored Division Spearhead (1st Gulf War).

What is the best kit and full AM interior (if any) for a machine of this time please ?

Cheers

Paul

ppawlak1
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Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 07:55 PM UTC
This will be a 2nd Brigade, 3rd Battlalion machine of a good friend of mine

Cheers

Paul
Leopard-2
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Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 08:28 PM UTC
Well Paul, there are two options for you: The best A1 kit out there by far is Dragon's M1A1 AIM. Of course the AIM program started years after the first Gulf War but doing a back-conversion shouldn't be a problem.

As far as i know there's only AM (turret) interiour on the market which comes from Verlinden and it actually represents the interiour of the old M1 fitted with the 105mm rifled gun.

If you also want to get a driver's compartement you will have to do some kit bashing. Former Dragon kits (now under the CyberHobby label) come with a pretty nice driver's compartement.


Now for the second option: you might like Italieri's M1A1 with resin parts for interiour AND the gas turbine engine. --> http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/italeri/it6438.htm


It actually represents a M1A1 from the Gulf War time. The kit itself is not as detailed as the modern Dragon ones and has it's mistakes but has nice detailing though. Also the resin parts look pretty good. Fitted with some AM products like PE parts etc. this kit will come out as an impressive model i think. I'm very interested in it but i have to finish my eight Dragon kits first.


At the end it's just a matter of the money you're willing to pay...


Hope this helps


Bernd
ppawlak1
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Posted: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 - 08:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Well Paul, there are two options for you: The best A1 kit out there by far is Dragon's M1A1 AIM. Of course the AIM program started years after the first Gulf War but doing a back-conversion shouldn't be a problem.

As far as i know there's only AM (turret) interiour on the market which comes from Verlinden and it actually represents the interiour of the old M1 fitted with the 105mm rifled gun.

If you also want to get a driver's compartement you will have to do some kit bashing. Former Dragon kits (now under the CyberHobby label) come with a pretty nice driver's compartement.


Now for the second option: you might like Italieri's M1A1 with resin parts for interiour AND the gas turbine engine. --> http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/italeri/it6438.htm


It actually represents a M1A1 from the Gulf War time. The kit itself is not as detailed as the modern Dragon ones and has it's mistakes but has nice detailing though. Also the resin parts look pretty good. Fitted with some AM products like PE parts etc. this kit will come out as an impressive model i think. I'm very interested in it but i have to finish my eight Dragon kits first.


At the end it's just a matter of the money you're willing to pay...


Hope this helps


Bernd



Thanks Bernd

I'll find out more info on "How the Gods Kill" from Bill, and make a decision on the kit.

I've also got a couple of Dragon's M1A2 SEP kits to convert to Australian M1A1 AIMs, but I want to get Bill's Gulf War Machine right first.

Cheers

Paul

Tankrider
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2011 - 02:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This will be a 2nd Brigade, 3rd Battlalion machine of a good friend of mine

Cheers

Paul



Paul,
By Second Brigade, 3rd Battalion, you mean 3rd Battalion, 8th Cavalry, right??

If so, they had late model M1A1s, not the DU Armored HAs. The Tamiya ones will work but need more add ons that using Dragon's AIM kit. The AIM or SEP will need T-156 rubber track, either from ATM (OOP) or Trumpeter...

The AIM kit will need to add the two lifting points attached to the right rear corner of the hull. Use the "smooth" blow-off panels on the turret, the Loader's and Drivers hatches without the rims. You will need some additional PE for the bustle rack as kit's PE does not cover the whole rack. That is about the best that I can do off the top of my head...

Drop me a PM if you have any questions or decide to use the Tamiya kit, and I will do my best to assist

John
ppawlak1
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2011 - 06:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

This will be a 2nd Brigade, 3rd Battlalion machine of a good friend of mine

Cheers

Paul



Paul,
By Second Brigade, 3rd Battalion, you mean 3rd Battalion, 8th Cavalry, right??

If so, they had late model M1A1s, not the DU Armored HAs. The Tamiya ones will work but need more add ons that using Dragon's AIM kit. The AIM or SEP will need T-156 rubber track, either from ATM (OOP) or Trumpeter...

The AIM kit will need to add the two lifting points attached to the right rear corner of the hull. Use the "smooth" blow-off panels on the turret, the Loader's and Drivers hatches without the rims. You will need some additional PE for the bustle rack as kit's PE does not cover the whole rack. That is about the best that I can do off the top of my head...

Drop me a PM if you have any questions or decide to use the Tamiya kit, and I will do my best to assist

John



Yes John. That is correct.

3rd Battlalion 8th Cavalry "Iron Bridade".

The Abrams was called "How the Gods Kill" and was in A Troop I think.

I will contact you regarding the kit most appropriate.

Thanks for your valuable feedback.

Paul
ppawlak1
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2011 - 06:40 PM UTC
Bill is keen on an interior so it seems the Italeri kit may be appropriate if that is to be done.

Otherwise I guess it is the M1A1 AIM kit as mentioned by you John and Bernd.

Thanks for all of your help.

Paul
ppawlak1
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 11:04 AM UTC
It seems like a fair bit of scratch building will be in order on the Turrent.

I will use the Dragon M1A1 AIM kit, and kit bash one of the older Dragon kit interiors into it.

Is there a reference document (eg: book), or are there plans of the interior of the M1A1 somewhere that I can get hold of please ?

Eg: Panzer Tracts style book ?
didgeboy
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 12:06 PM UTC
Paul;
I served with 4/8 Cav (sister unit of 3/8 Cav) in DS and we had the most current model at the time the M1A1HA. I can guarantee you on this point, not to disagree with anyone, but on this point I am quite knowledgeable. We had just updated to the newer models just prior to my arrival in Gelhhausen, our base, in June (I think they made the change in April). Tracks should be the original angled tracks and NOT the bigfoot, as I think has already been mentioned.

I am happy to help with some reference photos and other info if needed. Cheers.
majjanelson
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 12:42 PM UTC
Paul,


Quoted Text

The AIM kit will need to add the two lifting points attached to the right rear corner of the hull.



The below picture of a SC Army NG Abrams shows what John is referring to, which are the pieces of metal welded to the hull either side of the Taillight Housing.



Note also that the Tailight round tube guard is not welded to the rear hull as the LH side is - there is a Bolt, Flange, Stud on the bottom of the tube, and the entire Taillight Assembly can be relocated to the rear side of the Auxiliary Power Unit, which is why the mounting brackets are there.

A good reference with some interior images is the Verlinden M1, M1IP, M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank (Warmachines, No. 6) which has images from the 80s.

An ODS reference is Steven Zaloga's M1 Abrams vs. T-72 Ural. An excellent reference is Mr. Zaloga's hardcover book Abrams: A History of the American Main Battle Tank, but it can cost over $300.

You can also utilize the Missing Links M1 Abrams Tweaks List for EXTERIOR corrections to older kits other than the newer DML M1A1 AIm kit. Note that some of the tweaks could be for post-ODS Abrams.

The best source for what to put on your ODS Abrams are images of the specific tank or at least from that unit during ODS.

I hope this helps...
ppawlak1
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 01:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul;
I served with 4/8 Cav (sister unit of 3/8 Cav) in DS and we had the most current model at the time the M1A1HA. I can guarantee you on this point, not to disagree with anyone, but on this point I am quite knowledgeable. We had just updated to the newer models just prior to my arrival in Gelhhausen, our base, in June (I think they made the change in April). Tracks should be the original angled tracks and NOT the bigfoot, as I think has already been mentioned.

I am happy to help with some reference photos and other info if needed. Cheers.



Thanks Damon !

You are a gentleman - I will be in contact.

I will probably get my feet wet on M1's with an OOTB build on Dragons M1A2 SEP first - in parallel there will be a lot of work researching the 3 / 8 ODS machine

Thanks again

Paul
ppawlak1
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 01:38 PM UTC
Thanks for the great info Jeff

I'll look to see what I can find on the books you mention ! I have the Osprey M1 vs T72 book, and have the Zaloga Osprey M1 book on the way also.

Thanks again

I'm looking for on as much visual info on the exterior changes required to the AIM kit and also details of the interior.

Paul
bison126
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 08:46 PM UTC
Paul,
you can check my article about the old Dragon M1A1 I built into a USMC tank with a partially scratch interior.
Here is the link
Olivier
ppawlak1
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Posted: Monday, January 02, 2012 - 08:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul,
you can check my article about the old Dragon M1A1 I built into a USMC tank with a partially scratch interior.
Here is the link
Olivier



Thanks Oliver

That is beautiful work !!!

Cheers

Paul
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 04:02 AM UTC
I also used Olivier's great interior build as a guide for my USMC M1A1HC Angry American and US Army M1A2 SEP with full interiors.

On both I used the old Dragon partial interiors and scratched the rest.

I would stay away from the Italeri one with resin parts. They are not really that good and are too flat. The older Dragon interior is quite good and much cheaper.

Tankrider
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 04:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul;
I served with 4/8 Cav (sister unit of 3/8 Cav) in DS and we had the most current model at the time the M1A1HA. I can guarantee you on this point, not to disagree with anyone, but on this point I am quite knowledgeable. We had just updated to the newer models just prior to my arrival in Gelhhausen, our base, in June (I think they made the change in April). Tracks should be the original angled tracks and NOT the bigfoot, as I think has already been mentioned.

I am happy to help with some reference photos and other info if needed. Cheers.



Damon,
By looking at the pics that I have (scanned form one of my employees who was with TF 4-18 which appeared to have A/4-8Cav cross attached) the 4-8 Cav tanks appear to be late model M1A1s, not Heavies, mainly the track. If you say that you had Heavies, I will take your word as I was in Kitzingen at the time, riding early M1A1s, without the oil cooler flush access ports in the back deck... I f there were Heavies, issued with T-156track, then that is a new one on me and I am happy to accept that. As an aside, what troop were you in??

John
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 05:14 AM UTC
Some M1A1 interior pics :

http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/rob_mccune/m1a1/

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/m1abrams.html

A M1A1 turret trainer may be worth a look too:

http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/abramstrainer.htm

HTH

Frenchy
didgeboy
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 06:14 AM UTC
John;
here is a pick of my track and my crew in/or around March of 1991. If you look at the serial number on the turret base, just below and forward of the smoke grenade storage box, you will see the "U" after the last number, which unless I am completely old denoted the DU upgrades, and you should be able to see the additional plates added to the frontal armour of the turret as well. Looking at the front slope forward of the drivers hatch you could also see where the additional plates were added. Here are the pics;



I will see if I can upload the other photo. Cheers.
ppawlak1
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 07:18 AM UTC
Thanks all, Damon's find points to the fact that 3 /8 tanks where also Heavies.

Mmmmmm, I wonder what I should do now ?

A kit bash of the AIM with a M1A1HA for a nicer result ?

Cheers

Paul
didgeboy
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 07:54 AM UTC
Paul; back in college (1994) when only the Tamiya M1A1 was available I started by adding the additional plates to the turret and front hull. While this may not be the best solution now, it might be a starting point. There was an article in MMiR a while back "Baghdad Basher" I believe was the title, that went through the various good and bad points with the Tamiya, Trumpeter and DML kits available circa 2005. I am sure that there is also plenty of info on how to back date the DML M1 AIM kit as well. Frenchy is a great resource for putting up reference photos and I am happy to help with some "in theater" ones too. Let us know what you need and we'll help where we can. Cheers.
ppawlak1
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 08:54 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul; back in college (1994) when only the Tamiya M1A1 was available I started by adding the additional plates to the turret and front hull. While this may not be the best solution now, it might be a starting point. There was an article in MMiR a while back "Baghdad Basher" I believe was the title, that went through the various good and bad points with the Tamiya, Trumpeter and DML kits available circa 2005. I am sure that there is also plenty of info on how to back date the DML M1 AIM kit as well. Frenchy is a great resource for putting up reference photos and I am happy to help with some "in theater" ones too. Let us know what you need and we'll help where we can. Cheers.



Thanks Damon, since the AIM kit is on the way, and incidently a USMC M1A1HA kit is coming for the interior, I think I have this one covered.

Having said that I want to use the AIM kit as the base - the reviews have that one as SWEEEET !

PM sent on the unit.

Cheers

Paul

didgeboy
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 09:15 AM UTC
What are you using for the interior? i might want one too. Cheers.
ppawlak1
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 09:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul; back in college (1994) when only the Tamiya M1A1 was available I started by adding the additional plates to the turret and front hull. While this may not be the best solution now, it might be a starting point. There was an article in MMiR a while back "Baghdad Basher" I believe was the title, that went through the various good and bad points with the Tamiya, Trumpeter and DML kits available circa 2005. I am sure that there is also plenty of info on how to back date the DML M1 AIM kit as well. Frenchy is a great resource for putting up reference photos and I am happy to help with some "in theater" ones too. Let us know what you need and we'll help where we can. Cheers.



Ideally Damon I need pics of Tanks from 3 / 8 from as many angles as possible, inc stowage, uniforms, etc.

However if 4 / 8 had the same equipment then as many pics of 4 / 8 tanks will surfice for starters, until I scratch up some more info.

I'm still trying to get my head around the differences between the various variant's I think I need to do some serious reading and make notes.

Is there a 'reckoner' somewhere that details the changes from :

M1A1HA

to

M1A1 (late)

to

to M1A1 AIM

and why these changes were made ?

BTW: I'm waiting on the Osprey Zaloga book to arrive so I hope that will help somewhat.

Cheers

Paul
ppawlak1
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 09:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What are you using for the interior? i might want one too. Cheers.



M1A1HA Dragon partial interior plus I'm scratch building the rest. Hopefully I'll be able to stick it out and not get distracted

I'm new to modern US Armor so this is a big learning experience for me and I'm learning as I go on this whole M1 thing.

I with I had a spare $400 for the Hunnicut book

Cheers

Paul
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 - 09:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Is there a 'reckoner' somewhere that details the changes from :

M1A1HA

to

M1A1 (late)

to

to M1A1 AIM

and why these changes were made ?




This should get you started:

M1 Variants Article here on Armorama
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