While I’ve been pondering about starting some WWII armor kits for the first time, I’ve also been wondering what is a good tank to use to represent British armor? (want to keep my start of WWII armor modelling to one representative of each combatant) I’ve read the Matilda was numerically important in North Africa but the Crusader was more effective as a tank. I get the impression the Cromwell is more popular as a British armor subject because it was the most capable British tank. My current thinking was to display a Cromwell along with a German Tiger I. Some where recommended it to me because of a well known engagement of Tigers and Cromwells during the invasion of France.

So if you were going to use one tank to represent England for WWII want would you use?

The Churchill was a very popular infantry tank. Rather than Cromwell vs Tiger, How about Churchill vs Panther?

For one tank alone, I think the Churchill would be it. Flamethrower, capable AT gun, engineering vehicle - it did it all, albeit slowly.

Early war / desert, I'd say A12 Matilda just because its appearance is ubiquitous with North Africa.

Mika

First of all 'England' was not fighting in ww2, Great Britain was.... England has been part of the United Kingdom since 1707 along with Scotland and Wales. The British army was, and is composed of people from many different countries.... As a scotsman I served in the British Army reserve for a number of years. And you can bet your last cent, none of us would have been there to protect England....Jim

Representive? Probably the Churchill would have it, although eventually it comes done to a question of aesthetics, for me that would be the Cromwell....

My apologies, Jim. That said, what would you say best represented Great Britain in WWII armor?

hard choice,
the valentine was the most produced british tank of the war,
we probably used the sherman in greater numbers and the firefly had the best gun,
the churchill was the most heavily armoured,
the cromwell is the prettiest.
the matilda was the best thing we had for the first half of the war,
the crusader broke down too much.
of course all this is just my opinion, apart from the valentine part!
cheers
joe

Hi

I think this could ruffle feathers, but the most common/representative tanks in British/Commonwealth service were variants of the M4 medium tank (aka the Sherman). So the most "English" tank is American...

David Fletcher's "The Universal Tank" is an interesting history of tank use by British forces.

Having said that, the most common British designed vehicle in service was the Churchill.
And I'd say the aesthetics of the Churchill are pleasing like the angles of a Tiger are impressive. If you build the Tamiya Churchill you'll see how damned big they were! A lot bigger than a Crommy or Sherman.

Cheers
Andy

i'd go for the churchill personally.

In my view the Churchill has the vote, followed by the Cromwell.

My opinion would be the Matilda for the first half of the war and the Churchill for the second. Matildas were at the front all through the war. They served with the british and Commonwelath forces in North Africa, Europe, and Malta up to and through 1943 and then served with the Australians in the South Seas up to the end of the war. Many variants also. And if you want it to stand out on your bookshelf paint it with a Cantaur scheme. The Churchill also a very prominent tank from late 1941 until the mid 50s. Every conceivable variation was used...flamethrower, bunker buster, bridge,ARV, etc...you get the picture.
My 3.5 cents worth..due to inflation.
Sean

It seems to me that the Churchill gets nominations due to it being among the best of all of Britain's tanks during the war. And it looks way tougher than the Matilda!

I've been leaning towards the Matilda because it was the main tank used by Britain in North Africa when Britain was alone in the war. After I do my collection of 'Most important armor' I'll have to do one of 'The best of Armor' so I can add the Churchill

It looks like my collection will look like:

Matlida vs Panzer III

M4A Sheman vs Panzer IV

T-34 vs early Panzer V

Panzer IV would probably be the most appropriate opponent for all allied armor but I wanted little variety.

The 'Best of Armor' can be:

Churchill vs Tiger I

M26 vs Tiger II (did this happen?)

JS-II vs Tiger II

Those look like pretty good match-ups to me. After all, you're doing it to please you, so model away and enjoy yourself every chance you get

When I think WW2 Brit tank, I think Matilda. The Matilda was used by all the countries in the "British Empire."

Howdy all,

Jeeeez, another great thread here on the big 'A'!!!!!!..........imagine that!

Being British by birth, and having a Patriarch who was born in Edinburgh, I had to check out this thread!

'jimbrae' get's big kudo's from me on his 'clarification' of historical affiliations. (Although I would like the same kind of 'clarification' on his signature).....or would I?

'greatbrit' is apparently well versed historically, and a heck of a politician!

'herberta's obviously got heuvo's......but he protect's his 'boys' with the "you'll see how damn big they were" commment

'Aurora-7' is, I would bet, from the WWF crowd of modeler's with his 'X vs. X' map......... #:-)

...all in all I would say "there's fire in that there shootin' match!"

Just kiddin' all.......I [bLOVE[/B] YOU GUYS!!!!!

I am leaning tword the Churchill. She is a nice tank, crude, but beautiful!

Or do two English tanks, and two German tanks!

~Chip :-)

Although the Cromwell is my favorite, but within your criteria the Matilda or Churchill are probably best choice, although the Firefly has much going for it, although based on the US M4 it was a British development. As for your matchups I think I'd put a late model Panther vs the M26, rather than the M26 vs Tiger 2, for more variety you could put the Sherman vs a mid production Panzer 4 (no shields, G model?) and the T34 vs a late Panzer 4 (H or J model). Although the history between the Panther and T34 makes that match up a good choice.

Thanks an awful lot, guys. I'm a real novice when it comes to tank history (I usually model WWII aircraft) but this site plus a visit to a recent model show really nudged me into trying something with WWII armor.

I wanted to do a display a little different than having a tank in the field, driving through a structure, or surrounded by it's crew. I was thinking of a simple base with the two AFVs opposite to each other at a slight oblique angle towards each other and maybe have each vehicles commander in the top hatch, staring each other down and a simple title on the base like 'Adversaries: North Africa 1942".

Sounds great. Now I just need to get hold of the kits. Right now I'm eyeing a Matilda on Ebay

I'll be back with armor modeling questions.

HERES AND IDEA FOR YOU ARORA, WHY DONT YOU FORGET ABOUT THOSE UGLY GERMAN HEAPS OF SCRAP,HEHE,
AND JUST BUILD ALL THE WONDERFUL BRITISH TANKS MENTIONED ABOVE!
HELP ME IN MY GOAL TO BUILD A MODEL OF EVERY BRITISH TANK EVER!
I REALISE ILL PROBABLY DIE TRYING BUT HEY,
BRITISH TANKS RULE!!!!!!!!!!1
CHEERS
JOE

Tell you what I'll do. I'll do my adversary displays in 1/35 and do all the Brit armor in 1/72. That would make a nice parade ground diorama :-)

Howdy greatbrit,

I suppose being a halfbreed (born in Great Britain/ mostly raised in the 'States'), I am torn.
BUT, and it's a big BUT........I think it's pretty safe to say that the 'brit's' have had a very significant influence on armour as a whole. From inception, thru developement, to the fruition of the entire idea of Armour...................ya think?

Tread.


BTW, Aurora-7 has already answered his own question by naming the dio "Adversaries: North Africa 1942".
He has asked himself 1 of the 5 basic dio questions and come up with the required basis for an answer. Good on ya Aurora-7!!

very true treadhead,
after all the tank was a british invention after all,
we have produced some of the finest instruments of warfare ever built,
and invented many of the improvements that have been encorporated over the years.

many people dismiss british tanks of world war 2, because many could'nt stand up to the more modern german tanks, but they have to consider the political motives of the british governments before the war.
they beleived the next major war in europe would be exactly like the last, bogged down trench warfare.
they were ignorant to hitlers re-armnament, and didnt invest in new weapons.
they were more interested in appeasing germany, rather than meeting the threat.

new idea's were dismissed, hence once combt erupted the BEF had to rely on outdated, undergunned tanks ( A9 etc).
th few new ideas that were adopted, such as the churchill, were more suited to ww1 stlye tactics, and not realy designed for 'blitzkrieg' tactics.

the idea's were always there, it just took a few years for them to be adopted, hence late war tanks being as good, as german ones. the comet for example.

just bear in mind that british tank development was 5 years behind everyone else!

cheers
joe

the cromwell is the best

Howdy greatbrit,

Obviously you're a 'greatbrit'! I agree with all your points. I could point out even more, but you're probably already aware of most of them.
I would like to hear your opinions of British armour principles, i.e., how they were deployed, and used during WWII. In other words, compared to both US, and German deployment tactics, how did you feel about the British 'style'??
Wait, my apologies for getting off topic.....if you feel better taking this off thread, PM me. OR, if others are interested as well, type on!

Tread.


Just to try to reel it back a little closer to topic, I think the Churchill is quite an impressive piece of steel! I've got a Churchill Crocodile that I have started (many months back), and I must say, I am very impressed with the sheer size of the bloody thing!!
Hey! Just thought of an off-shoot topic......If you could make plausible changes to the existing British inventory of tanks during WWII (in other words, immediately) what would they be? A Churchill with some (more) up-armour and an 88mm gun? A Cromwell with twice the horsepower? A Matilda with TOW? (just kidding )
Curious.

thanks treadhead,
ill pm you about my opinions reggarding tactics etc.

to answer your second points, the churchill is a bloody big tank, i realised that when i got close to one during my recent trip to normandy.

the best plausable changes that could have been made in my opinion are,
1-never let an 88 near a british tank cos the 17pdr/3.7' AA gun were far better.
2-gt the black prince into service(then you would see a great churchill!)
3-hurry up with the development of the centurion(best tank in the world until the 1980's)
but never saw service during WW2
cheers
joe