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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Dad's Tank, Help request on Photo id, Sherman
42rocker
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Posted: Monday, March 05, 2012 - 05:55 PM UTC
Dad's Tank -- Big Help request from you Sherman nuts out there. Please Give your thoughts.

This photo was taken states side during training. My Father was a tank Driver then commander then tank instructor and this photo was taken of him in the field with one of his tanks. Time: best guess 1943 thru 1944. Tank was a training tank and could also have be used to test different ideas etc. So mix's, changes, repairs, replacements could have happened.

Thoughts so far
Sherman M4A1 75mm Early Version
Cast Hull

Following info from Military Miniatures in Review (MMIR) volume 8 and volume 9 The Sherman Tank "A Fragmented Look" by Pete Harlem. Have the following info.

Vol 8 MMIR has part 3: Tracks. --- Reviewing it and looking at the photo and the track, from the side to me it looks like your basic VVVS Track with Track blocks that look like T54E1 (my best guess). Other ideas??

Vol 9 MMIR has part 4: Sherman Suspension System. --- Lots of stuff on this one.
1st Drive sprocket: Looks like Type 1C: Fancy smooth variation.
2nd Road Wheels: Looks like Solid Spoke to me.
3rd Bogie Type: Looks like type 2 Heavy Duty VVS (M3/M4)
4th Type 2 Variations: Ok, looks like a mix on this one. Using the diagrams and reviewing photo I think the following using Pete Harlem drawings and words as best as I can. Top to bottom
a. Skid: looking at the middle Bogie, to me looks like the first rounded type of skid does not look like the revised or final shape.
b. Roller arm: Looks straight, so not late version
c. Main Bogie body: Looks like the 2C-1: Intermediate standard, has the molded seam in the top area. Has what looks like raised marks in the center ribbed area. Then one of the important things has three bumps (not 2)
d. Arm: Has hole area below the bolt area which means that it is not the early type 2A.
e. Wheel: Solid spoke type.

Well that's all I have been able to learn in the past week. About 2 weeks ago I started thinking about building a diorama with a picture of my Father in front of one of his tanks that he was with during his time in the Tank Corp. Found the picture last weekend finally, long search. Then started digging into stuff.

Bought a Dragon Kit No 6048 "M4A1 75mm Early Version" to build from. Has a lot of good starting points, but need to redo several things that I see so far.

Ok, needing help and thoughts. If anyone has the "spare don't use" Solid spoke type wheels that they don't need, my Dragon kit only came with one "D" spruce. So I'm missing 1/2 (6) of the solid wheels. Planning on trying to rebend the skids or make new ones. As far as the letter, number raised castings in the center area on the Bogie's I'm thinking about trying to add some detail stuff then roughing it up and painting over it in that area unless someone has a better (easy) idea. I also don't think that the drivers hatch is right either but need to find more stuff on that one. If you have another kit that you think would work better please let me know.

GOAL: Build a diorama with a 8x10 photo in the background and have the tank and figure in front of it just LIKE the photo. Want the tank to be as close to the photo as possible. Ok, looking at the photo can't see the engine, back of tank or the top or right side. Of course want that as close as possible but want the main view of the tank to look just like the tank in the photo, Tank in the photo may be a one of a kind made from leftover parts or a test sample, but it the one that I want to copy...

Would be interested in seeing part 1 and part 2 of that Sherman Tank stuff that Pete Harlem did. Have lots of German Tank and U-boat info but very little on U.S. Shermans. Therefore HELP request to you great guys.

Thanks Tim @ 42rocker

Note about photo. I scanned at 1200dpi then resized to try to get something to fit that would also work with the internet as far as downloading and uploading. Initial photo was a black and white size 2 and 3/4 inch by 4 inch.






SdAufKla
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Posted: Monday, March 05, 2012 - 10:05 PM UTC
Hi Tim,

I can't add much to your own research on the tank's features except to say that when you do get some replies (which I'm sure you will), the ID of the features will probably be in the form of the official drawing / part numbers and not Mr. Harlem's "types" and "numbers." Most of the contemporary research has been rationalized to now use the official drawing / part numbers which are much more precise than other ID systems.

The ID system that Mr. Harlem used in the old MMiR's was an excellent effort at the time, but has since become quite dated. (It only really makes sense to someone else using the exact same references - the old MMiR articles.)

Some other details that you might want to confirm or cross-reference with your kit are the placement of the turret lifing eyes, the gun mantlet, the tracks, and the final drive casting. I don't beleive from your photo that the coax or hull / bow MG's are installed. You also might want to try to do some research on the location where the photo was taken (Fort Knox perhaps?) in order to start dialing in the markings (training unit / bumper codes).

Having said all that, I'm no Sherman "expert" and would be doing much the same as you are now - probably asking for help! BTW: Formations Models and Tank Workshop might be good sources for the various wheel, bogie, and turret resin details.

I really just wanted say that that's a great picture!

Can you make out the tank name on the hull side? I was just wondering.

Good luck!
42rocker
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 02:14 AM UTC
Mike
Thanks for your thoughts. Learning more ever day. Name on side of tank is "Eligible". Interesting as I have several other photos on 2 pages in the family photo book of tanks. All look same time frame and area but slight differences between the tanks. I'll look long and hard at several of the photos later tonight and see if there are any other shots of "Eligible". And check in other records as to area. Dad traveled a lot, From Minnesota and on finally into Japan.
Also looking for advice about what kits or after market products I might use to copy the tank in the photo.

Thanks Again

Later Tim @ 42rocker
AgentG
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 05:12 AM UTC
Here's a good review of your kit. That DML 6048 looks about right to me.

One thing, I'm seeing T49 tracks, the three bar steel type.

Any body else?

G
barkingdigger
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 06:59 AM UTC
The DML kit should be ok, but I find the "texture" to be a bit exaggerated - it looks like a 70-year old town square monument, with heavy coats of chipped paint. Best to tone it down a little.

You could go with a Tasca M4A1 to get a smoother hull. It'd also give those early track skids, although if that's all you need I'm sure I could scare up a set (along with six solid-spoke wheels...).

And I'm leaning toward Agent G's track identification. T54E1s were rare until late '44 in NWE, but they might have been on Stateside training tanks earlier, I suppose. However, T49s are more likely. AM T49 tracks can be had in band-form from Tasca and AFV Club, among others, and in indy-link plastic from Panda.

Good luck with the build and let us know how you get on!

Tom
AgentG
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 07:08 AM UTC
I second the Tasca recommendation. I'm building one now, and the skids are included. I too can scare upa set!



I will be using Modelkasten T49's on my build so wish me luck.

G
42rocker
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 08:40 AM UTC
Thanks for the thoughts and I'm learning and reviewing. I looked up the t49 tracks on ebay "Tasca1/35 M4 VVSS Suspension set Late w/T49Track#35L34". In reviewing those tracks and a blow up area of the track on my Dad's tank I'm thinking that the end view of the T49 track "web" looks thicker than what I see in the blowup. That said I'm still learning and reviewing. I'll try to find more pictures tonight and hopefully I'll have a few of the same tank. The bogie's look real close, of course the skid would need to be changed to the early one.

More input Please... Love to have more on the turret.
I don't believe that the machine guns were in any of the tank pictures that I have. Will try to narrow down the time period and find the where. My Father joined the jump master in the sky in 1995, so my remembering and finding the notes on this and that, well I working on it found the pictures.

Found the Tasca website

http://tasca-modellismo.com/english/emain.html

Thanks Later Tim @ 42rocker
stevieneon
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 09:26 AM UTC
Yup - Tasca mid production M4A1 is the way to go when you look at the hull shape where the hatches are, it matches the Tasca model very closely but not the Dragon M4A1, plus you'll get everything you need apart from the correct tracks.
tanknick22
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 10:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dad's Tank -- Big Help request from you Sherman nuts out there. Please Give your thoughts.

This photo was taken states side during training. My Father was a tank Driver then commander then tank instructor and this photo was taken of him in the field with one of his tanks. Time: best guess 1943 thru 1944. Tank was a training tank and could also have be used to test different ideas etc. So mix's, changes, repairs, replacements could have happened.


Thoughts so far
Sherman M4A1 75mm Early Version
Cast Hull

Following info from Military Miniatures in Review (MMIR) volume 8 and volume 9 The Sherman Tank "A Fragmented Look" by Pete Harlem. Have the following info.

Vol 8 MMIR has part 3: Tracks. --- Reviewing it and looking at the photo and the track, from the side to me it looks like your basic VVVS Track with Track blocks that look like T54E1 (my best guess). Other ideas??

Vol 9 MMIR has part 4: Sherman Suspension System. --- Lots of stuff on this one.
1st Drive sprocket: Looks like Type 1C: Fancy smooth variation.
2nd Road Wheels: Looks like Solid Spoke to me.
3rd Bogie Type: Looks like type 2 Heavy Duty VVS (M3/M4)
4th Type 2 Variations: Ok, looks like a mix on this one. Using the diagrams and reviewing photo I think the following using Pete Harlem drawings and words as best as I can. Top to bottom
a. Skid: looking at the middle Bogie, to me looks like the first rounded type of skid does not look like the revised or final shape.
b. Roller arm: Looks straight, so not late version
c. Main Bogie body: Looks like the 2C-1: Intermediate standard, has the molded seam in the top area. Has what looks like raised marks in the center ribbed area. Then one of the important things has three bumps (not 2)
d. Arm: Has hole area below the bolt area which means that it is not the early type 2A.
e. Wheel: Solid spoke type.

Well that's all I have been able to learn in the past week. About 2 weeks ago I started thinking about building a diorama with a picture of my Father in front of one of his tanks that he was with during his time in the Tank Corp. Found the picture last weekend finally, long search. Then started digging into stuff.

Bought a Dragon Kit No 6048 "M4A1 75mm Early Version" to build from. Has a lot of good starting points, but need to redo several things that I see so far.

Ok, needing help and thoughts. If anyone has the "spare don't use" Solid spoke type wheels that they don't need, my Dragon kit only came with one "D" spruce. So I'm missing 1/2 (6) of the solid wheels. Planning on trying to rebend the skids or make new ones. As far as the letter, number raised castings in the center area on the Bogie's I'm thinking about trying to add some detail stuff then roughing it up and painting over it in that area unless someone has a better (easy) idea. I also don't think that the drivers hatch is right either but need to find more stuff on that one. If you have another kit that you think would work better please let me know.

GOAL: Build a diorama with a 8x10 photo in the background and have the tank and figure in front of it just LIKE the photo. Want the tank to be as close to the photo as possible. Ok, looking at the photo can't see the engine, back of tank or the top or right side. Of course want that as close as possible but want the main view of the tank to look just like the tank in the photo, Tank in the photo may be a one of a kind made from leftover parts or a test sample, but it the one that I want to copy...

Would be interested in seeing part 1 and part 2 of that Sherman Tank stuff that Pete Harlem did. Have lots of German Tank and U-boat info but very little on U.S. Shermans. Therefore HELP request to you great guys.

Thanks Tim @ 42rocker

Note about photo. I scanned at 1200dpi then resized to try to get something to fit that would also work with the internet as far as downloading and uploading. Initial photo was a black and white size 2 and 3/4 inch by 4 inch.



Here is what you have in the pic you have a remanufactured M4A1 with a one piece transmission housing, mid production road wheels and the 3 bar clete tracks but it still has the early M34 mantle and i agree with the other Shermanholics that the DML kit will be your best choice because the DML kit does offer the the early M34 gun mantle




barkingdigger
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 11:48 AM UTC
That transmission is the earlier "rounded" one-piece job, with the single attachments for towing rings on each side, and not the later "sharpened beak" version with two brackets for each towing point. (Can't remember the Ordnance numbers offhand at this hour of the night...) Both the DML and Tasca kits have the correct one, as well as the early mantlet, so it's just a matter of choosing your preferred maker. Either way, the lack of MGs and the white stripe around the turret suggest training back in the States around 1943. The tracks are the real challenge - you'll need a better picture to be sure of them. Looks like a fun project!

Tom
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 12:07 PM UTC
Tim, that's a nice project. The fact that the tank name starts with E usually indicates that this is an E company tank. If you have other pictures of other tanks at the same time, put them up and we can see if the unit markings are discernable.

If you have any questions on the particular details feel free to email me at [email protected].

KL
42rocker
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Posted: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - 05:46 PM UTC
Again THANKS to all that have given info. Dug for more pictures and found 12 to 15. Of course at least three different tanks. Two of them have white stripes around the turret. One has the T54E type of track on it. However from another view the other tank (one I'm interested in) has the T49 type of track. So going to use the T49 type of track in the build. Have the Dragon 6048 kit in hand so will start with it. Got a great phone call from my son a few hours ago. Seems that he is coming into town for a visit at the end of the month. So planning on a surprise tank build while he is in town. We worked on a 1/72 sub together so we should be able to get a good start on this if I can choose and find and get shipped in all of the parts that we are going to need. He will end up with the final project someday anyway.

On the rough surface on the Dragon tank, how about a light sand down to help smooth the surface?? Thoughts?

Looking on ebay to see what tracks and bogies are out there and avaible. Anyone know of where they might be in stock?
My wife will be in Japan at the end of the month but will not be back till after my son leaves. Don't really think that she will want to be chasing down tank parts anyway, LOL. Still I might ask, she will be in the Toyko area. Know of any good shops??? Like how far away is Tasca???

When I get to work I'll try to scan, enlarge and upload a few more pic and post them. Still working on time and where. Unit, I have his old patch's around somewhere. Another dig project. Then look for his records. Enough..

Later Tim @ 42rocker
barkingdigger
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 08:12 AM UTC
Well, if you go with the DML kit then I'd give the hull, transmission, and turret a light wet-sanding to soften the worst of those texture craters, but I personally wouldn't bother adding fillers etc. (Once reduced a bit, they should look ok under a coat of paint.)

The kit bogies are ok shape-wise, so get yourself a set of Archer Transfers casting marks - these are decals with raised resin "markings" seen on many US tank parts. They go on like any decal, but you apply them to the bare plastic before painting (so no silvering to worry about). You'll still need skids and wheels - my offer still stands if you PM me your address. I don't have any spare T49 track, but if you go to Panda Plastics on the web they sell them. (Or, Tasca offer theirs as separate parts on their website, and I find their rates cheap enough given they are shipping from Japan! The Tasca ones are quite nice, and easier to assemble...)

Tom
42rocker
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 11:32 AM UTC
Tom
Thanks for the input on the sanding. I'll get back with you on the wheels.
I scanned about three pics today just did not get a chance to up load to photobucket yet. When I get back to work tomorrow.

Later Tim @ 42rocker
42rocker
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Posted: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 05:03 PM UTC
Happy Day on some things.... Found that I had set one of the "D" spruce trees aside and found it... Now I have the needed solid spoke wheels. Reviewing the bogies on my Father's tank I think that a rebuild used both sets of different bogies from the kit. I'll try to take the parts to work and take a few photographs of the then photoshop my ideas about cutting, reshaping, and gluing them together in a different way to get what I want. More tomorrow.
Unhappy about the track as we are looking for T49 and the track in the kit is not T49. I'm looking at track from Squadron.

Later Tim @ 42rocker
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