Interesting debate. I only know that when I am playing Battlefield 1942 I would much prefer being in a Tiger. Ironically in the game (as I think was true in real battle) the Tiger seems to be more in peril from ground troops (engineers and anti-tank) then from other tanks. The darn thing rocks to much for sure, hard to get a good shot in on the fly.
From the few good things I have seen I had the impression the Tiger was designed more for the open steppes of Russia anyways. The better question would have been "Which is better, the TIger or the T34?"
Cheers,
Jim
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Tiger vs Sherman, Which is better?
staff_Jim
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 05:20 AM UTC
keenan
Joined: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 05:28 AM UTC
Pete, I saw that footage too. I think it was in Cologne, 1945. A Panther knocked out 2 Shermans and they called in a Pershing. The two tanks stalked each other through downtown until the Pershing hit the Panther with three quick shots. Pretty graphic footage on both accounts. I think it was the Modern Marvel episode about the Sherman, where they discussed how poorly armored Shermans were.
Shaun.
PS, I did manage to find a still from the footage I think we are talking about. It is of one of the Shermans being hit.
EDIT: Found more info on a 3rd AD history site. Quote "Tank Battle in Front of Cologne Cathedral
A word on the capture of Cologne, to be discussed later in this section. It can hardly be overemphasized that the motion pictures of the tank battle which took place in front of the Dom in Cologne, the cathedral, taken by T/3 Leon Rosenman and T/4 James Bates and their crew were said to be some of the best photographed tank action of the war. In this a German Panther tank is located in front of the cathedral (streets lead to the cathedral like spokes in a wheel) and thought to be knocked out. However, the turret suddenly turned on an American Sherman tank and fired. The Sherman was hit and the commander slid down the back of the tank, falling to the ground and bled to death. Then a newly arrived U.S. M-26 Pershing tank with a 90mm gun took on the Panther and knocked it out."
EDIT
Shaun.
PS, I did manage to find a still from the footage I think we are talking about. It is of one of the Shermans being hit.
EDIT: Found more info on a 3rd AD history site. Quote "Tank Battle in Front of Cologne Cathedral
A word on the capture of Cologne, to be discussed later in this section. It can hardly be overemphasized that the motion pictures of the tank battle which took place in front of the Dom in Cologne, the cathedral, taken by T/3 Leon Rosenman and T/4 James Bates and their crew were said to be some of the best photographed tank action of the war. In this a German Panther tank is located in front of the cathedral (streets lead to the cathedral like spokes in a wheel) and thought to be knocked out. However, the turret suddenly turned on an American Sherman tank and fired. The Sherman was hit and the commander slid down the back of the tank, falling to the ground and bled to death. Then a newly arrived U.S. M-26 Pershing tank with a 90mm gun took on the Panther and knocked it out."
EDIT
Dmitriy_Li
Joined: February 15, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 05:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Still, almost all sources I have encountered rate the Tiger II as overall superior to the JS-2 in a shooting match.
In August 1944, new German tanks appeared on the Eastern Front: King (Koenig) Tigers. Weighing 68 tons, this tank was larger and much heavier than the JS-2.
The first engagement of Soviet tanks with King Tigers did not favor the Germans; on August 13 of 1944 a company of JS-2 tanks (the 3rd Battalion of the 71st Guards Heavy Tank Regiment) commanded 1st Lieutenant Klimenkov engaged in close combat with German tanks, knocked out one King Tiger and burnt another King Tiger. About at the same time, a single JS-2 of the 1st Lieutenant Udalov ambushed 7 King Tigers, knocked out one of them and burnt another one. Survived five German tanks attempted to retreat but Udalov made a maneuver and destroyed third King Tiger. Four other tanks flee in panic.
Details of that battle are here
Dmitriy_Li
Joined: February 15, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 06:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The better question would have been "Which is better, the TIger or the T34?"
Why not "Which is better, the Tiger or the JS-2?". Why should one compare two different class tanks? T-34 is a medium tank while Tiger is indeed a heavy tank by both russian and german classification. It's like comparing M1A1 to M60. M1 is definitely better, what a surprise
AaronW
Joined: August 03, 2003
KitMaker: 197 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 09:34 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe better question would have been "Which is better, the TIger or the T34?"
Why not "Which is better, the Tiger or the JS-2?". Why should one compare two different class tanks? T-34 is a medium tank while Tiger is indeed a heavy tank by both russian and german classification. It's like comparing M1A1 to M60. M1 is definitely better, what a surprise
But is typical, I rarely run across Sherman vs Panzer 4, Panther vs T-34/85 etc. I think the comparison is really more like M1 vs Leopard or AMX-30, the M60 is at least in the same weight class as the Abrams. The Sherman is a fine tank, but outclassed by the Tiger, it is not a fair comparison. To take this in another direction how about a 3 way the Stuart vs Panzer 2 vs T-70?
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 6,043 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 11:45 AM UTC
Well actually the Panther was better then both. plus if the Germans had concentrated on Building more of them instead of Tigers Which in my opinion is best looking one at least better looking then a Sherman.
Their might have been a little different ending on the War ,would of lasted longer.
The Panthers Gun outranged the Tigers and had a better kill ratio to boot longer the barrel better the Round correct I guess all you Armor folks know that.
As for the Tiger being indestucible well that just is up to crew I guess a good crew and who knows what they can do look at Michael Wittmams crew and what they did in their Tiger I
(++) (:-)
Rebuffs taken.
Hubba Hubba (++) (++)
Their might have been a little different ending on the War ,would of lasted longer.
The Panthers Gun outranged the Tigers and had a better kill ratio to boot longer the barrel better the Round correct I guess all you Armor folks know that.
As for the Tiger being indestucible well that just is up to crew I guess a good crew and who knows what they can do look at Michael Wittmams crew and what they did in their Tiger I
(++) (:-)
Rebuffs taken.
Hubba Hubba (++) (++)
KFMagee
Joined: January 08, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 06:28 PM UTC
Wow... comparing the Sherman to a Tiger in terms of which is better is kinda like comparing Dolly Parton to Ally McBeal... I think it all depends on how you look at it!
JPTRR
Managing Editor
#051
Joined: December 21, 2002
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Posted: Friday, October 24, 2003 - 05:43 AM UTC
Quoted Text
hmmm,
what about a Pershing against a Tiger? They saw limited use in WWII in '45.
Footage from the History Channel shows a Pershing knocking out a Panther with no trouble.
They should have listened to Patton....
Hi Peter,
I don't know how to spell it but, au contraire!
Read Steel Coffins by a man named Belton, who was in one of our heavy armor div. after D-Day. According to him, we would have had the M-26 in Europe much earlier EXCEPT PATTON nixed it! Why? Because USA doctrine was that TDs fought tanks and tanks were exploitation weapons. He didn't think the M-26 was as quick or nimble as the M-4 (wrong!); he also wanted the armor supporting the infantry instead of looking for Pzrs to fight. It is a controversial issue.
There is a book on German AFVs by...can't recall the name but I'll get it...that lists battle reports of the German armor vs Allied, including the Tiger/Panther v M-26. The M-26=Tiger I, but the Panther was mostly superior.
Peter
slodder
Joined: February 22, 2002
KitMaker: 11,718 posts
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Posted: Friday, October 24, 2003 - 05:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Wow... comparing the Sherman to a Tiger in terms of which is better is kinda like comparing Dolly Parton to Ally McBeal... I think it all depends on how you look at it!
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Now how can you argue with logic like this????
Over the long run I'd rather arm myself with Shermans, if I had to climb in one and go head to head - give me a few more please.
I believe as a technical piece of machinery the Tiger was superior - as an implement of war the Sherman wins.
Congrats on the Star Keith.
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