Hi folks.

I'm starting this build this week sometime; it's been washed and is ready for assembly. I've been getting some materials and tools together over the last week or two, and now it's time to make a start.

The model's camo scheme and weathering will be for Libya 1941; or I hope it'll look like that! My intention is to model an Axis vehicle from each front and each year the front was active.

It's my first build for around 25 years, and even in those days my models got painted as per instruction sheet - as if they had just rolled out the factory.

I'd be glad of any pointers at all, whether it's for the camo scheme, weathering or construction. Maybe even from people who've built the 222 from other manufacturers (I'm aware of at least 2; Tamiya and Tristar).

Something I should mention is the model will be OOTB - I'm on a tight budget and don't have funds for AM goodies.

Please feel fry to chime in with advice, comments, or even reference images.

Something I'd like to know before I start is whether it's possible to to model the optional 4 wheel steering this vehicle had - is it OK just to cement the parts at the correct angle when building the chassis and suspension, or will it give me headaches later on?

Thanks. Gavin.

I am excited. If you need a specific reference photo, let me know. I am sure there are some museum walkarounds too!

Gavin:

Hi! I'll be watching as this goes! I have this kit on the pile, and have just pretty much completed the HobbyBoss -223 Funk kit - a mondo-cool little kit indeed! (The HB 222 and 223 kits are very very closely-related - more on this below.)

As you launch, here's a couple of bits from my opinion - and - experience locker:

The kit is chock full of neat details inside and out - you'll see a complete motor, the inside screen to the radiator from the crew compartment in PE, a really nice set of suspension bits, a super - cool frame assembly, all sorts of great exterior bits with nice detail and great molding, nice roof and turret PE, and a lot of cool interior bits.

You get vinyl tires - nice, but also a little fiddly to mount in my experience. I think they are slightly under-sized, but...

Not having built that turret, I cannot say whether the turret goods are really good or not, but the parts look good and I think you'll get a fairly complete gun and mount assembly and a pretty nice turret screen assembly over it all.

The HB 222 and 223 kits share the same hull, with some small mods for the top on the 223 to hold that car's smaller MG-only turret and the frame antenna. All quite "kosher" historically-speaking, as the HB 223 kit mostly models the "SdKfz 223 ausf B serie-5 funk" built using the last few hundred of the later-model 222 hulls - hence both kits share the same vision-blocks and covers and external features...

The reason I "digress" into the 223 is that HB flubbed both the 222 and 223 cars in the interior. As I've cast much on this elsewhere - the brief summary is that HB used their apparent 222 interior for their 223 - leaving aside that "funk" cars had radio sets... None of which appear in that kit interior. For your 222 kit, there also is no radio - but most 222 had a receiver set. More importantly for the 222 with the 2cm Kwk 38 cannon, the turret pedestal is apparently provided, but no ammo storage nor ammo mags nor ammo cans are included for that cannon... and these would figure as key elements in your interior.

Hey. These are just detail carps! The HB kits are, IMHO, extremely nice kits and will build into sharp-looking cars - whether you go "OOTB" or not.

I'm also with you in other ways... I dropped out of modelling in 1975, returned in late 2008! And I, too, am a cheap guy and rarely buy any AM stuff (other than metal gun barrels - specially for Flak and KwK 38 - which are never done well in styrene but fortune has it you can buy RB metal barrels pretty cheaply! ) So... do a little scratch work and save money while amping-up a really great kit!

For my 223, I used the kit and did a bunch of styrene sheet and bottle-tin work to dress things up and try and fix the kit's lacking and wrong interior. Not that I got it all right, mind, but a little tweaking around the frame, suspension, doors, interior features can go a scale million US miles or 1.65 million km!

Here's some of the mods as I went along...



Can't wait (too long, anyways) to see what you get to!

Bob

Gavin:

Hey - sorry I missed your question about the 4-wheel steering... I did that on my HB 223 - and as it's the same frame and suspension for your HB 222... you should be able to do it (OK, I'd lie if I said "quite easily", but...).

Here's a pic of my frame with the steerage arranged - in my case, I opted for doing it in "4-wheel" mode - the car had optional 2- (front only) or all-4 modes. These were controlled by a small handle mounted on the floor which served to engage and release the aft-parts of the steering linkage. Just like in the parental Horch utility car Type 1A...



It does take a little detail work to get it actually looking right (wheels in the right locations and with the correct camber or tilt.)

The key things are 1) examine all the linkage arms under that frame - if you carefully cut all the linkage arms apart using horizontal cuts thru the joining knuckles or pins, you'll be able to re-arrange all of them correctly to show the turned assemblage. 2) the wheels themselves mounted on a stub-axle thru a knuckle which pivots fore-and-aft within the ring which attaches to the upper and lower swing-arms of the "independent suspension assemblies". This is your key place to change things and keep the correct geometry... You want to trim those knuckles and their seats so that you can actually twist them fore- or aft as needed while keeping them in their realistic locations within the ring. This is needed both for "realism" look and because of those brake-drums, which need to be rotated in place to keep tires from crashing fenders and frame, etc.

And 3) remember that 4-wheel steering needs all tires moved to correct places and to the same degree or angle (noting that fronts will face one way, while the rears face the opposite.)

It's not too hard to do - a little tedious, but, IMHO, fun and really worth while to get that special look these cars could have!

Bob

I have access to lots of images of the interior of the 222 that I am using in my own build log of this vehicle, let me know if you would like me to post them.

Thanks

Steven

@ Bob
Thank you for taking the time to post in such detail. I'll return to those a number of times I'm sure, as I progress in my build.

I'm definitely going to give the the 4ws a shot. The wheels will look fine, but I can't promise anything with the linkages underneath! But you've given a good explanation and I'll try my best.

Did you post a build-log of your 223 here? I've not come across it.

By the way, when you referred to the gun barrels, what does RB mean?

Thank you again.

@ Steven

I'd actually already bokmarked your build-log as reference. It looks as though you've finished the metalwork and are about to start painting the interior? You're probably doing that right now in fact.

I've came across some interior shots around the web; those and your images when painted should be enough for me mate, but if I do feel I need anything I'll give you a shout. Thank you for the offer.

Incidentally, I admire the effort you've put into your build. The vehicle's looking great too, and I'm positive it's going to turn out great.

Hi Gavin,

I have been heavily modifying the interior and an update is due soon, probably tonight.

My son was born on the 19th May so getting time to do any work is challenging as he is a crying monster

Congratulations!!

Maybe you could get an after-market pack to mod the crying.......

I hope everybody keep in mind that a 1941 Sdkfz 222 cannot be made (historically coerrect) from the Hobby Boss model.
Hobby Boss has made a 5th production run vehicle with the Horch chassis 801V (reinforced), which was not put in production before May 1942.
"Easiest" indentification for this are the side indicators on top of the front fenders.
In fact I have never seen a photo evidence (till today ?) showing a Sdkfz 222 of the 5th production run with the DAK in the Western Desert (=Lybia).
Due to the very bad supply situation in the 2nd half of 1942 I think the DAK has never received some of this last models to "retreat" from El Alamein to Tunisia.

Thank you for the heads-up. In his review, on this site, Robert Blokker agrees with you and in fact says that in his opinion most of the detail is of a late model.

In your opinion, what is the earliest you would date this model with the DAK?

I must say I'm not terribly bothered at this point as long as I enjoy the build, but it would be nice to stay at least a little accurate in an OOB state.

Gavin / all;

Hi again!

Always cool to see this go round!

Here I am quoting myself from previous posts!

quote[The HB 222 and 223 kits share the same hull, with some small mods for the top on the 223 to hold that car's smaller MG-only turret and the frame antenna. All quite "kosher" historically-speaking, as the HB 223 kit mostly models the "SdKfz 223 ausf B serie-5 funk" built using the last few hundred of the later-model 222 hulls - hence both kits share the same vision-blocks and covers and external features...]quote

Yes, the above 222 and 223 HB kits are (mostly) of the later / last series production of the 222. So, I would concur with Eric and with Rober Blokker, or they perhaps with me! No, you cannot really do a 1941 car from this kit. These last Wegmann-hull vehicles came off the line from May 1942 and thru to the end of 222 production in mid 1943. The remaining hulls were diverted over to 223 production. So, HB did get that "late" part mostly correct!

The late version 222 did make it to north africa in later 1942. Below is a pic I just copied from "achtungpanzer.com". This pic, which appears in several pubs, is of a late 222 with the large and small visors and the turn indicators up on the wings (fenders) and the cage over the Notek light on the left wing. These are details evident in the HB kit (and on the Littlefield restored car). From this, I am pretty sure that you can use this kit to model this general version car in this theatre.

In fact, I'd half-bet that HB may well have used both the Littlefield car and this pic and perhaps some others to create their kit and to do their box-art! Certainly the art captures this pic pretty well.



@Gavin:

"RB" is an AM barrel company in, I believe, Poland, which makes very nice turned aluminum and brass gun barrels for various scales. They produce both a Flak 38 L/65 (typical full-length 2cm barrel as seen on the stand-alone Flak 38 as kitted by Tamiya, Dragon, Tristar) and the shorter L/55 or L/50 barrel used on the KwK 38 version of the Flak 38 which was mounted in the 222. There are several 2cm -38 barrels marketed by different makers. While not the ultimate best of the lot, the RB is very pleasing and pretty accurate in most key aspects - size, shape, really nice muzzle-brake with correct holes- and is about the best - priced, IMHO. IF you go on eBay you can easily find these RB barrels. There are direct vendors galore. LuckyModel handles them, as do several other outfits around old planet E. For the 222, the best barrel would be the shorter one - Flak 38 L/50 barrel RB #35B66.

About my 223... well, I started it as a project for the Armorama "Command campaign" - the frame seemed ideal to do that 4-wheel steering thing, and just screams for adding on a few hoses and brake and lub lines and operating rods and stuff... so I started there. But as I worked into this gem, I found out that the interior was flubbed, and then started to research the car - later discovered that the kit provides mostly the basis for the last serie-5 ausf B 223 built off of those last Wegmann 222 late serie cars... at which time I discovered that my previous interior fixes - guided by what little is actually available on the internet, etc. - was all wrong! Meanwhile, the campaign marched on towards its deadline, and I bogged down in my version of the Concorde Fallacy! The effort and time ramped up, I decided to put that motor aside to save some time, and I discovered that the frame antenna was all wrong and, unlike that hard-to-see interior, quite readily visible ) and embarked on fixing THAT... needless to say, I didn't get her done for that campaign!

I next decided to fix up that tiny turret - hey, it's "in for a penny, in for a pound", as some would say! And yeah, along the way, I saw a few more details wanted fixing or adding...

It's almost done with the paint-shop - but I broke my fixed frame antenna so need to redo a few things...

I have taken a pile of pics along the way. Once I get this sorted, I plan on posting a sort of build-feature. Many of the things I did are fully-transferable to both the HB 222 and other kits of related cars (i.e. the Bronco and Tristar offerings). There seems to be quite an interested group of folks working around these cars of late, and several have done some amazing stuff. I'd bet that if we all pooled all of our stuff, we could create a sure winner indeed!

Bob

Hi Bob,

I even know this picture, called as be in "North Africa"


but who says it has been made there ?
Any documentation about where this picture has been made?

For me (as I know North Africa) it looks as it would be Tunisia (so from end of 1942 till May 1943) or Greece.
If I am correct, its not an evidence that a late 222 has been in the Western desert, means Lybia for me.
And never in 1941

Hi Gavin,
all of the Hobby Boss 222 details shows a Type "B", 5th production run vehicle. So it cannot be dated before May 1942 and later.

The Hobby Boss 223 is wrong in case for the aerial frame antena, because on 5th production run vehicles (type "B") the gear driven antena mount was connected to the rear supports, while Hobby Boss has reproduced it on the front support, correct for Type "A" 1th-4th production run.

Hmmm, looks like I'm going to have to change my intended camo scheme to reflect a different time period. Best to find these things out now though. I'll also have to adjust my personal campaign - modelling a vehicle from each front in each year the front was active; I was planning on the 222 for DAK 41, a 251 for 43, and a Pz III for 43. But I digress.....

I'm tempted by an AM barrel - I'll see what happens.

Thanks to both of you for keeping me on right course.

@ Bob Sounds like you've been having an ongoing catastrophe with your 223! LOL. I hope it turns out OK in the end. When I was in my teens I had an air rifle and whenever I was unhappy with the way a build was going I'd take it out and shoot it into pieces. LOL.

Gavin,

The Tristar Sdkfz 222 can be backdated to an 4th production run vehicle which was used by the DAK from 1941 on, because it has the (correct) chassis used for the Ausf. "A" (= Horch 801 chassis with lever type shock absorbers outside the coil springs)
You have to fit the side indicators on the upper hull (like the Sdkfz 223 of Tamiya has) and to close the round cover plates paln with the hull at the and of the hull sides, which are incorrectly made by Tristar for the version their Sdkfz 222 should be.
This round cover plates was covering the holes in the hull where the rear areal antena support gear (to lift up /dwon the antena) has been.
Because with the 5th production run, both Sdkfz 222/223 used the same hull and so even the Sdkfz 222 has this holes, but covered by an plate.

You have even to change the two side visiors on the turret, against one with a slit and than it would be mostly correct.
Beside the fact that the steering system of the rear axle is on the wrong side of the axle for this chassis, but thats another story...

PS: I dont want to demotivate someone, at the end its a hobby, so everything is ok.

Honestly, just build the best model that you can, and 99/100 people would not know the difference. On another forum I saw a collegue destroy a wonderful Panzer 4 build because some of the modifications he made to the kit were incorrect and belonged to a later version of the tank.

I tend to add way too much detail to a model but I would not be overly concerned about what I read in this thread.

My 222 will be a DAK vehicle, if that is not quite correct that will not spoil it for me.

@Eric

quote[but who says it has been made there ?
Any documentation about where this picture has been made?

For me (as I know North Africa) it looks as it would be Tunisia (so from end of 1942 till May 1943) or Greece.
If I am correct, its not an evidence that a late 222 has been in the Western desert, means Lybia for me.
And never in 1941]quote

I hope we are by this time all in agreement that 1) the HB kit is of a late-serie car (May 1942+ production) and 2) that it cannot be done, as it stands, as an earlier car and paint scheme for DAK in north Africa ca mid or later 1941.

As to the 222 car picture, I am pretty comfortable with it being a later-serie car, and very much so for it being in north africa. Which would of course have to be post- May, 1942 given its late production status. The circumstance keys are the gent standing in the tropical uniform and pith helmet, which are almost certainly from the Libya / Tunisia later Africa campaign, and also the Acacia scrub vegetation typical of near-coastal north africa in Tunisia and Libya - Tripolitania. The smoke-grenade mount on the front would have been available and still in use on NA cars in 1942, but probably not around on later Italian or Sicily campaign vehicles, and this later car could not have been in the Greece or Balkan campaigns of 1941. Probably later-war vehicles engaged in rear-area and anti-partisan activities would not have those grenades mounted on the front.

You have indeed hit on one of the HB 223 kit errors I have been slogging around - that erroneously-shaped and incorrectly-mounted frame antenna! Yes, the 223 ausf B serie 5 had the mount-raising drive and axle across the rear behind the crew compartment, whereas all previous serie (1, 2 and 3 - there were no 223 serie-4 cars!) had that device mounted above and behind the driver's seat in that part of the crew compartment roof. To fix this, I had to scratch together that rear rig - axle, mounts, post-antenna attachments, etc., and rebuild the frame antenna geometry.

In fact, it was while scratching in the first version of that mount-drive device that I started to really learn that HB was foisting a later-B-serie-5 car on us! I started out thinking that I could build the "missing" drive into the roof of the kit using some info gleaned from the internet that showed this drive and its location above the driver... turned out that the info I was using pertained to the Ausf A (serie 1, 2, 3) cars and not to the serie 5 car I had in my hands! But I discovered this little versioning detail only after I had done the scratch-work! So, I left that erroneous "ausf A fix" - which shows up in a pic I posted above of that interior - in the roof and went on to do the "real ausf B fix" in the rear using later info. Better late then never. Life-time learner, and all that!

No better modeling fun can be had, by me!

From this...

@Gavin:

I'd commend you to simply ENJOY the kit! Don't try to convert it to some earlier mark or version, unless you are feeling true compulsion to do so. The late car did serve "over there", and I am sure you can safely do the HB kit up as a later-serie car used in post-May 1942 north Africa. The paint-schemes for that term in the German post- El-Alemein experience are available and you'll have some options!

As to my 223 - I certainly in no way regard it as being any sort of catastroph! It's a great kit, huge modeling fun, and a thrill to actually meander thru the details of history and do some of the correcting. Aside from spending more time by far emersed in the muther than originally budgeted-for, it has been a true fun build and has primed my pump to pull out one of my 221 kits to give that a detailed go! Has it turned out "OK"? You bet! I am most pleased with the outcomes so far! (I have gone for doing it up as an east-front 1945 vehicle...) While I'll not be making the 2012 IPMS Nationals in Orlando FL with it, I anticipate entering many shows around the southeast US with it, and, if luck holds, maybe get it into a "Nats" next year!

And, from all our chatter on your 222, looks indeed like you'll have to do something else for the early DAK period in 1941! Maybe try out the Panzer 1B "DAK" kit Dragon has produced - not bad at all, I can say (with a genuine smile ), or - my fav, the Panzer 1A (Tristar makes the best, IMHO)!

Cheers!

Bob

No, that's not happened; it's cool. Although I'm building OOB it's still nice not to splash the wrong camo scheme on the model - which is what would have happened if you guys hadn't intervened. And even though I'm not a rivet counter I still think it's great that some people are - because you/they keep people like me correct.

As Steve points out - I'll just be building it as best I can. And hopefully it won't look to 'wrong'. I'm happy as long as it looks like a fair representation and in the correct colour scheme for the period.

Hi Bob.

I should get the chassis finished tonight. It took me a wee while to get my head around the changes needed to model the 4ws, but the wheels should go on at the correct angles - I just hope the mechanics never run it up on a ramp and look underneath!

Regarding your 223. When I said catastrophe I meant just you encountering one problem after another and having to redo things. I have faith it'll roll out the factory just fine.

Gavin;

Yeah, I know you weren't having at any catastrophe - more in the spirit of loving one's old Jag or Triumph - constantly needing to adjust and fiddle!

Model kits and marriages... You're allowed to vascillate and change stuff and cut bits off and change your mind in one, but not (supposed to, anyways ) the other!

yeah... don't run it up the mechanic's ramp! Over on this side of the pond we have "carfax" (carfacts?) and this MAY have put a small dent in liars and fibs about our used motorcars - "Check this gem out! looks quite right up on top - all the tin is shiny and the glass clean, and wow! those tires look oh-so-black and almost like they're new (only 41k on them!)" The suspension is, well, a whole 'nother story!

I'm waiting to see some pics!

Bob

That's as good as it's getting.

Question - would the Gelbbraun RAL 8020 that's the base colour also be used on the underside of the vehicle?

Gavin;

A pic! Nice start!

Looks to me like you got the critical rotation of the axles and knuckles within their seats just fine. Dry-fit the drums and tires to see how well you have achieved "parity and equality" in your turns before you finalize things. As you do have those tires turned, they want to be all pretty consistent, as it will otherwise stand out and hurt your eyes!

"What color the underside?" I am sure there are lots of folks with opinions on this one. Seems to me that there is actually little data available to solidly answer this (but again, someone will surface with that baggie!) (it's like chumming for sharks ).

For both my 223 and a Horch 1A gun-truck (old Tamiya kit tricked-up a bit), I opted to "argue" that 1) the underside/frame members and "melons" would probably have been finished-off in the black enamels popular with pre-war auto-makers and the industrial standard for many equipment manufacturers of the day - not with the ever-popular "rot-oxide primer" (bare primer is and was NOT a final finish on hardly anything. It's primer, not final sealed-coat), and 2) everything under the body would be very dirty - so whatever color it originally was would be covered with dirt and dust (with oil dribbles etc. as desired, of course!). Crawl under any used car and see what color the inner frame and bits are!

So - I primed my entire kit in Floquil "engine black" RR enamel, base-coated everything visible from up top(including outside frame-rails and under fenders and such) with dunkelgelb, and substantially covered the inner-frame and suspension bits with earth colors. In the end, you get to see the detail underneath (I don't mud-up these things much) but it's mostly dirt-colored. The dust of course extends up the sides and across the vehicle in "weathering", so there is no sharp cut-off between frame dirt and body-sides.

Just my approach and no claim that this is the "right" way to do it!

Bob

This is going on a back-burner for the time being, for a couple of reasons.

I'm kinda being held back at the painting stage because I've not built my spray booth yet - hopefully in a few days. But apart from that I feel that as I've never used an airbrush I should make my first attempt on a cheaper and easier model.

With that in mind I'm going to start on Horch Kfz.15 from Italeri. But I'm looking forward to coming back to this. Thanks to everyone for their help so far!