Hi all,
Ever since the introduction of the various MRAP vehicles, I wonder why these trucks have no M-Numbers?
Any ideas?
Hans-Hermann
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MRAP`s - Why no M-Numbers?
HermannB
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Posted: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 07:04 AM UTC
Thatguy
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Posted: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 08:25 AM UTC
Two important points. Firstly, under the US Army's nomenclature system, any system that is determined not to have been specifically modified for US Army use does not have to receive an Army Type Designator, instead using its commercial designation. As COTS purchases it appears to have been decided that MRAP/RCV family vehicles did not warrant an Army Type Designator. This same sort of reasoning generally applies to other service designation systems.
Secondly, some MRAP vehicles have received designations:
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category I, XM1220 (Caiman Light)
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category I, XM1230 w/ EFP Armor (Caiman Plus)
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category II, XM1248 w/ EFP Armor (Caiman)
What's interesting here is the company name in the extended nomenclature. Note also that the Caiman family has significant commonality with the US Army's FMTV family.
The three variants of the Panther MMPV (part of the RCV family, not the MRAP family; different program, different funding) have also received designations, but I only know the Army Type Designator and not the full nomenclature:
- XM1226 (Engineer variant)
- XM1227 (EOD variant)
- XM1229 (Intelligence variant w/ Prophet system)
I assume these vehicles are also in the Mine Resistant Vehicle category, but having some experience with US Army designations and nomenclature I wouldn't bet any real money on it heh.
Secondly, some MRAP vehicles have received designations:
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category I, XM1220 (Caiman Light)
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category I, XM1230 w/ EFP Armor (Caiman Plus)
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category II, XM1248 w/ EFP Armor (Caiman)
What's interesting here is the company name in the extended nomenclature. Note also that the Caiman family has significant commonality with the US Army's FMTV family.
The three variants of the Panther MMPV (part of the RCV family, not the MRAP family; different program, different funding) have also received designations, but I only know the Army Type Designator and not the full nomenclature:
- XM1226 (Engineer variant)
- XM1227 (EOD variant)
- XM1229 (Intelligence variant w/ Prophet system)
I assume these vehicles are also in the Mine Resistant Vehicle category, but having some experience with US Army designations and nomenclature I wouldn't bet any real money on it heh.
thathaway3
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Posted: Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 08:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Two important points. Firstly, under the US Army's nomenclature system, any system that is determined not to have been specifically modified for US Army use does not have to receive an Army Type Designator, instead using its commercial designation. As COTS purchases it appears to have been decided that MRAP/RCV family vehicles did not warrant an Army Type Designator. This same sort of reasoning generally applies to other service designation systems.
Secondly, some MRAP vehicles have received designations:
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category I, XM1220 (Caiman Light)
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category I, XM1230 w/ EFP Armor (Caiman Plus)
- Mine Resistant Vehicle: BAE Tactical Vehicle Systems, Category II, XM1248 w/ EFP Armor (Caiman)
What's interesting here is the company name in the extended nomenclature. Note also that the Caiman family has significant commonality with the US Army's FMTV family.
The three variants of the Panther MMPV (part of the RCV family, not the MRAP family; different program, different funding) have also received designations, but I only know the Army Type Designator and not the full nomenclature:
- XM1226 (Engineer variant)
- XM1227 (EOD variant)
- XM1229 (Intelligence variant w/ Prophet system)
I assume these vehicles are also in the Mine Resistant Vehicle category, but having some experience with US Army designations and nomenclature I wouldn't bet any real money on it heh.
Actually the vehicles are not strictly COTS, but were developed under the Rapid Acuisition/Rapid Equipping initiative and were not done as a "Program of Record". (Had it been a normal Program of Record, they'd still be aruging over requirements, and still be in the Technology Development Phase)
One other point about MRAPs, they are NOT part of any specific unit MTOE, and in fact the Army is having difficulties in deciding what to do will all of them. Most of them were originally sent directly to Iraq/Afghanistan and were considered "TPE" or Theater Provided Equipment. Whether some variants will lose the "X" in front of the Type Designator remains to be seen. Many are going to go into pre-positioned storage.
TacticalSquirrel
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Posted: Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 08:58 AM UTC
Haven't they converted a few combat engineer company's into dedicated Route Clearance companies in the Guard? It's interesting to note that the 33L series have XM numbers and a name, I never knew they were called Panthers, everyone always just called them 33's, RG's, or the magic school bus.
Thatguy
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Posted: Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 09:49 AM UTC
The biggest problem here is that "MRAP" has become a generic term in common usage, when it in fact refers to a specific program managed by the Joint Program Office MRAP (JPO MRAP). Other vehicles of identical types are managed by the Army's Project Managed Assured Mobility Systems (PM AMS), and are part of the Route Clearance Vehicle (RCV) family (which also includes the Husky. The different budgets mean that in many cases the vehicle nomenclature is different (RG-33L or Panther MMPV for instance). Only the Panther MMPVs have XM numbers. The RG-33s managed by JPO MRAP are still just RG-33s, though JPO MRAP plans to pass all responsibility for the RG-33 off on PM AMS in the future, which would allow them to cut back on the number vehicles they need to buy. It appears they also want to pass the Buffalo off onto PM AMS entirely as well, if they haven't already. JPO MRAP hopes to eventually whittle down the models its responsible for to the M-ATV, RG-31, MaxxPro, and Caiman.
PM AMS effectively manages what started out as the Ground Standoff Mine Detection System (GSTAMIDS) in the 1990s, which was the reason for the initial investigation of what we'd now call "MRAP-type vehicles" before IEDs became threat number one to US forces.
Also, while MRAPs aren't in the TOE or in any specific MTOE, and are assigned as Theater Provided Equipment for deploying units, RCVs should be part of the Engineer Company, Route Clearance TOE, whatever that is. These units comprise the majority of units slated to retain these type of vehicles in the future. The Army otherwise plans to store "BCT Packages" in pre-positioned stocks to be used as Theater Provided Equipment should the need arise in the future and otherwise divest the balance of vehicles.
PM AMS effectively manages what started out as the Ground Standoff Mine Detection System (GSTAMIDS) in the 1990s, which was the reason for the initial investigation of what we'd now call "MRAP-type vehicles" before IEDs became threat number one to US forces.
Also, while MRAPs aren't in the TOE or in any specific MTOE, and are assigned as Theater Provided Equipment for deploying units, RCVs should be part of the Engineer Company, Route Clearance TOE, whatever that is. These units comprise the majority of units slated to retain these type of vehicles in the future. The Army otherwise plans to store "BCT Packages" in pre-positioned stocks to be used as Theater Provided Equipment should the need arise in the future and otherwise divest the balance of vehicles.
TacticalSquirrel
Connecticut, United States
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Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 - 04:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The biggest problem here is that "MRAP" has become a generic term in common usage, when it in fact refers to a specific program managed by the Joint Program Office MRAP (JPO MRAP). Other vehicles of identical types are managed by the Army's Project Managed Assured Mobility Systems (PM AMS), and are part of the Route Clearance Vehicle (RCV) family (which also includes the Husky. The different budgets mean that in many cases the vehicle nomenclature is different (RG-33L or Panther MMPV for instance). Only the Panther MMPVs have XM numbers. The RG-33s managed by JPO MRAP are still just RG-33s, though JPO MRAP plans to pass all responsibility for the RG-33 off on PM AMS in the future, which would allow them to cut back on the number vehicles they need to buy. It appears they also want to pass the Buffalo off onto PM AMS entirely as well, if they haven't already. JPO MRAP hopes to eventually whittle down the models its responsible for to the M-ATV, RG-31, MaxxPro, and Caiman.
PM AMS effectively manages what started out as the Ground Standoff Mine Detection System (GSTAMIDS) in the 1990s, which was the reason for the initial investigation of what we'd now call "MRAP-type vehicles" before IEDs became threat number one to US forces.
Also, while MRAPs aren't in the TOE or in any specific MTOE, and are assigned as Theater Provided Equipment for deploying units, RCVs should be part of the Engineer Company, Route Clearance TOE, whatever that is. These units comprise the majority of units slated to retain these type of vehicles in the future. The Army otherwise plans to store "BCT Packages" in pre-positioned stocks to be used as Theater Provided Equipment should the need arise in the future and otherwise divest the balance of vehicles.
Any particular reason they are not retaining the Cougar/JERRV family? Were they the smallest number ordered?
Thatguy
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Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 - 04:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Any particular reason they are not retaining the Cougar/JERRV family? Were they the smallest number ordered?
The JERRV is part of the RCV family (which also includes the Husky, Panther MMPV, and Buffalo MPCV) and there is no plan for that to change that I'm aware of. JPO MRAP reportedly plans to push the remaining Cougars its responsible for directly to the USMC.
TacticalSquirrel
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Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:11 AM UTC
Interesting. Thanks, I always loved my Cougar, the Marine's are lucky.
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:19 AM UTC
The Missouri Army National Guard just stood up a Route Clearance Company.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Monday, June 18, 2012 - 03:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Actually the vehicles are not strictly COTS, but were developed under the Rapid Acuisition/Rapid Equipping initiative and were not done as a "Program of Record". (Had it been a normal Program of Record, they'd still be aruging over requirements, and still be in the Technology Development Phase)
This isn't exactly right either...the program I work with has 2 systems that are QRC (Quick Reaction Capabilities) that have official nomenclature from the armed services...however we are unique also, since the FCC required us to change the nomenclature on each system because it was using different waveforms, so they could keep track of the frequencies it was using.
The 3rd system I work with is our Program of Record, which Big Army will be fielding soon...
thathaway3
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Posted: Monday, June 18, 2012 - 06:16 AM UTC
Didn't mean to imply that they didn't have official designations due to the fact that they weren't done as a program of record, but that they weren't COTS items.
Thatguy
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Posted: Monday, June 18, 2012 - 06:56 AM UTC
I know now that I shouldn't have used the term COTS for systems determined to be not modified significantly enough for a formal designation in any designation system, which was all I was really talking about.