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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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Joachim Peiper Tiger II
RotorHead67
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Posted: Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 03:56 PM UTC
Anyone
Does anybody have any markings info for Peiper's Tiger II
He used in Ardennes & Battle of the Bulge. Any data is greatly appreciated. TIA. Todd
GewoonWouter
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Posted: Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 05:31 PM UTC
HI Todd,

To be clear about this: there's no such thing as a Joachim Peiper Tiger II: the Tiger II's of the s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 was part of the LSSAH during the battle of the Bulge, and these were a part of the 'Kampfgruppe Peiper' under the command of Jochen Peiper. So he was an SS officer in command of a Battle group but he wasn't a tankcommander.

Archer transfers provides separate sets for the three different divisions of the s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 (AR3500, AR35099B, AR35099R)

Cheers
RotorHead67
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Posted: Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 05:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Tiger II's of the s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 was part of the LSSAH during the battle of the Bulge, and these were a part of the 'Kampfgruppe Peiper'

Archer transfers provides separate sets for the three different divisions of the s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 (AR3500, AR35099B, AR35099R)

Cheers



wouter;
Thanx for the clarification, but I know he wasn't an actual tank cm.dr, but commander of the 501st. Thanx for the
Decal lead.
GewoonWouter
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Posted: Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 06:13 PM UTC
no problem mate ^^

you might also want to score set AR35091
since the s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 was placed under the LSSAH they carried it's insignia on the front glacis and back plate (the shield with two keys in the center and the oakleaves underneath)

I built '213' a while ago (one of few KT's which survived the war and is on display at the small Belgian town of La Gleize)

(don't forget to post up your build ey )

Cheers
RotorHead67
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Posted: Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 07:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

no problem mate ^^

you might also want to score set AR35091
since the s.SS.Pz.Abt.501 was placed under the LSSAH they carried it's insignia on the front glacis and back plate (the shield with two keys in the center and the oakleaves underneath)

I built '213' a while ago (one of few KT's which survived the war and is on display at the small Belgian town of La Gleize)

(don't forget to post up your build ey )

Wouter
I thinking of doing #008. Will definitely post progress pics

Cheers

GewoonWouter
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Posted: Saturday, July 07, 2012 - 07:16 PM UTC
008? Nice one, then you'll need the red turret numbers. And it's a Befehlstiger so you'll need a stern aerial as well

Lookin' forward to that!

Cheers
RotorHead67
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Posted: Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 01:16 AM UTC
LOL
And you know this how?. I need to find some
Reference material. Profiles would be great!!
GewoonWouter
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Posted: Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 02:52 AM UTC
I have a quite extensive book on the Tiger Ausf B by Waldemar Trojca. Tiger 008 was Pz. Bef.Wg. Tiger Ausf. B Stab/s.SS.Pz.Abt.501, and was commanded by Adjudant SS-Untersturmführer Eduard Kalinowsky.

There are plenty of photos on the net concerning Tiger '008', most of them where she passes through the village of Tondorf before operation 'Wacht am Rhein'



Cheers
jrutman
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Posted: Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 03:09 AM UTC
Hey Todd,how's it goin,
For the Ardennes battle the Armored group Peiper consisted of"
Hq-1ss PzRegt
1st Bn
2 companies Panther
2 companies PzIV
2nd Bn(substituted for missing tanks of 1SS Pz)
Hq 501 heavy tank Bn
3 companies TigerII
III/2nd SS PxGren Regt(halftracks)
3rd Company 1ss Engineer Bn
2 batteries light howitzers from 1SS Arty Regt
Asst "slices" of medics,commo and supply elements
So Peiper had a huge,potent force with hundreds of vehicles and thousands of troops.
The Tiger you want to model was commanded by the ajutant of 501 tank Bn who worked for the commander of 501 Sturmbannfuehrer Von Westernhagen.
The best book you can find on this topic is "Duel in the Mist".
HTH,J
RotorHead67
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Posted: Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 03:45 AM UTC
Jerry
Thanx tons. That's very helpful info. I've been debating the purchase of Tigers in the Mist. Guess I'll have to break the piggy and buy it. LOL
bill_c
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Sunday, July 08, 2012 - 03:48 AM UTC
For purposes of clarification, a "stern" radio antenna does not mean "the rear end," even though it WAS mounted on the back of the vehicle. Stern in German (pronounced "Sht-air-n") means "star," and references the umbrella frame-shape at the crown. It was a special radio mast for command tanks used to direct other tanks.



There have been several attempts to render them in PE and various plastics, including this one from TASCA.
RotorHead67
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Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 - 01:57 PM UTC
All Respondents:
Thanx to all who posted. Well after searching the web, reading from my library, these are my findings..... I know the
tank commanders of #008,#009, Order of Battle for Wacht am Rhein, Peiper did command a Panther Ausf G. #001,. And I have
narrowed down my Tiger II Ausf. B build of course to either
008 or 009. This Tank will become my entry for the Big Cats Mk. II campaign.
Thanx guys for clarification & steering me in the right direction. Stay tooned for further Blog progress.
hogarth
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Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 05:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

All Respondents:
Thanx to all who posted. Well after searching the web, reading from my library, these are my findings..... I know the
tank commanders of #008,#009, Order of Battle for Wacht am Rhein, Peiper did command a Panther Ausf G. #001,. And I have
narrowed down my Tiger II Ausf. B build of course to either
008 or 009. This Tank will become my entry for the Big Cats Mk. II campaign.
Thanx guys for clarification & steering me in the right direction. Stay tooned for further Blog progress.



Everything I've ever read, including quotes by Peiper himself after the battle, indicated he rode in an "SPW", presumably some sort of command halftrack. The only mention I've ever seen of him in a Panther was when he did a practice run in one to see how fast, with an unobstructed road, he could get from the start line to the Meuse, which he did by driving the Panther a similar distance over presumably similar roads while still in Germany.

Rob
RotorHead67
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Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 05:22 AM UTC
[/quote]

Everything I've ever read, including quotes by Peiper himself after the battle, indicated he rode in an "SPW", presumably some sort of command halftrack. The only mention I've ever seen of him in a Panther was when he did a practice run in one to see how fast, with an unobstructed road, he could get from the start line to the Meuse, which he did by driving the Panther a similar distance over presumably similar roads while still in Germany.

Rob[/quote]

KG Peiper & his BoB "ride" January 3 2004, 5:21 AM

Latest info is that SS-Standartenf¨¹hrer (Lt. Colonel) Jochen Peiper's mount during the opening days of the Ardennes Offensive (ie. on or around December 16-17, 1944) is he initially rode in his own Befehls Panther Ausf. G "001" before switching to a 251/3.

Leading from the front, he placed himself and his
Panther at the head of the 25km long road convoy of 800 vehicles which was "Kampf-Gruppe Peiper". The armoured spear-point of which consisted of Panthers and Pz.IVs of SS.Pz.Rgt.1 ¡°Leibstandarte¡± under SS-Sturmbannf¨¹hrer (Major) Werner Poetschke.

AngloSaxon
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Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 - 10:00 AM UTC
LOL
hogarth
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Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 12:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text




Everything I've ever read, including quotes by Peiper himself after the battle, indicated he rode in an "SPW", presumably some sort of command halftrack. The only mention I've ever seen of him in a Panther was when he did a practice run in one to see how fast, with an unobstructed road, he could get from the start line to the Meuse, which he did by driving the Panther a similar distance over presumably similar roads while still in Germany.

Rob[/quote]

KG Peiper & his BoB "ride" January 3 2004, 5:21 AM

Latest info is that SS-Standartenf¨¹hrer (Lt. Colonel) Jochen Peiper's mount during the opening days of the Ardennes Offensive (ie. on or around December 16-17, 1944) is he initially rode in his own Befehls Panther Ausf. G "001" before switching to a 251/3.

Leading from the front, he placed himself and his
Panther at the head of the 25km long road convoy of 800 vehicles which was "Kampf-Gruppe Peiper". The armoured spear-point of which consisted of Panthers and Pz.IVs of SS.Pz.Rgt.1 ¡°Leibstandarte¡± under SS-Sturmbannf¨¹hrer (Major) Werner Poetschke.

[/quote]

Where does that info come from?

I'm not doubting it, per se. I got my info from quotes from Peiper from interviews conducted right after the war (many of which are cited in the book "A Blood Dimmed Tide"). If he did start with a Panther, it must've been ever so briefly, since, as I recall, he was already in a half track by the time his column was held up by Lyle Bouck's I&R Platoon in the Loshiem Gap on day one.

If, however, I'm behind the times in my sources, I would love to know more!
Thanks!
Rob
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 02:27 AM UTC
Well,
Tank 001 was his tank but he was rarely in it. I have found no ref to him being in that tank during the battle of the bulge.
He was mostly in the commo track of the PzRegt or Diefenthals track from III/2SS PzGrenRegt or even,at times caught rides on whatever was going to the part of his very long column that needed guidence on anything at hand. Even a m/c.
Keeping control on that large panzer group was a real challenge,requiring a lot of energy and flexability,as radios were not very reliable back then and were further hampered by the terrain of the Ardennes.
We are miss led by hollywood in our belief in how things worked in those times. No calm commanders sitting in clean vehicles,always knowing what is going on and issuing orders correspondingly. The Germans and the Allies both had to rely on energetic commanders that were up front,getting the job done by personal intervention. The successful ones anyway.
J
RotorHead67
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Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 05:32 AM UTC
Robert & Jerri;
Yes I do concur. The documented info and printed matter that I've been able to find is si gray, and undefined.
There are also too many contradictions over who,what,where,and when. I still have not been able to actually locate a photo of said Befehls Panther Ausf. G he
supposedly commanded. With the demands and assets available to Peiper at the time of action, I am more inclined to believe, that his mode of transport would have been a SdKfz. 251 or 4 wheeled vehicle. My intentions are to model a Panther Ausf. G late w/ zimmerit, w/ camo purtayed as the ones that have been recovered from the same unit, and area of operations at the time. turret numbers black/white outline,SS emblem on front plate. As I cannot confirm nor deny this scheme, I think its my best educated, guess. Now I am always open for new findings or info to educate myself. After all if you dont try to document your subject whats the point. I may as well paint it pink.
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 06:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Robert & Jerri;
Yes I do concur. The documented info and printed matter that I've been able to find is si gray, and undefined.
There are also too many contradictions over who,what,where,and when. I still have not been able to actually locate a photo of said Befehls Panther Ausf. G he
supposedly commanded. With the demands and assets available to Peiper at the time of action, I am more inclined to believe, that his mode of transport would have been a SdKfz. 251 or 4 wheeled vehicle. My intentions are to model a Panther Ausf. G late w/ zimmerit, w/ camo purtayed as the ones that have been recovered from the same unit, and area of operations at the time. turret numbers black/white outline,SS emblem on front plate. As I cannot confirm nor deny this scheme, I think its my best educated, guess. Now I am always open for new findings or info to educate myself. After all if you dont try to document your subject whats the point. I may as well paint it pink.


As all of the Panthers in the mixed tank abt of 1SS in the ardennes were late production vehicles issued just a few weeks before the action there would be no zimerrit but they did have factory applied cammo. No unit markings were to be visable for security reasons. The LSSAH also had very unique hangers for their extra track hung on the turret,being a J shaped piece of rod welded to the turrets by the maint. section. Also,all of the company and platoon leader vehicles seemed to have had the all steel wheel versions of the late G model tanks.
Once again,for reference on this unit in this battle the series"Duel in the Mist" can't be beat. There are pics of almost every Panther that took part.
Now that I think about it 001 was not found at LeGlieze so it either dropped out with maint trouble during the advance of there never was a 001 as tanks were in short supply. The Regt had only 50% strength in tanks.the other half were made up for by the addition of the heavy Abt.
J
hogarth
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Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 06:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Robert & Jerri;
Yes I do concur. The documented info and printed matter that I've been able to find is si gray, and undefined.
There are also too many contradictions over who,what,where,and when. I still have not been able to actually locate a photo of said Befehls Panther Ausf. G he
supposedly commanded. With the demands and assets available to Peiper at the time of action, I am more inclined to believe, that his mode of transport would have been a SdKfz. 251 or 4 wheeled vehicle. My intentions are to model a Panther Ausf. G late w/ zimmerit, w/ camo purtayed as the ones that have been recovered from the same unit, and area of operations at the time. turret numbers black/white outline,SS emblem on front plate. As I cannot confirm nor deny this scheme, I think its my best educated, guess. Now I am always open for new findings or info to educate myself. After all if you dont try to document your subject whats the point. I may as well paint it pink.


As all of the Panthers in the mixed tank abt of 1SS in the ardennes were late production vehicles issued just a few weeks before the action there would be no zimerrit but they did have factory applied cammo. No unit markings were to be visable for security reasons. The LSSAH also had very unique hangers for their extra track hung on the turret,being a J shaped piece of rod welded to the turrets by the maint. section. Also,all of the company and platoon leader vehicles seemed to have had the all steel wheel versions of the late G model tanks.
Once again,for reference on this unit in this battle the series"Duel in the Mist" can't be beat. There are pics of almost every Panther that took part.
Now that I think about it 001 was not found at LeGlieze so it either dropped out with maint trouble during the advance of there never was a 001 as tanks were in short supply. The Regt had only 50% strength in tanks.the other half were made up for by the addition of the heavy Abt.
J



I would agree with Jerri. I'd say negative on Zimmerit....if any Panther G's as part of KG Peiper had it, I don't know that pics any pics of such a Panther have yet turned up.

There is a lot of photo evidence of the Panthers as part of his KG, including simple books like the ones from the Concord series, and the above mentioned Duel in the Mist.
RotorHead67
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Posted: Thursday, October 18, 2012 - 10:16 AM UTC
Robert & Jerri
Thanx alot guys, you all have been a great help. Yes "Duel in the Mist" has been on my wish list since printed, but alas its not in my liobrary yet. I was wondering about the Zimm. I have pics of panthers from PeiperKG without it, so I dont know what I was thinking (brain laps at old age). The camo scheme is quite appealing tho, wavy edged braun and green over dunklegelb. Disc pattern also. Roger on the no unit marks. Hopefully this project will come to completion if I can get the info narrowed down.





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