I haven't done any kit-building for years, but I'm contemplating taking it up again. I'd like to make an E50 of the 1st Royal Bavarian Heavy Cavalry (Prince Charles of Bavaria), shortly after the Inchon landing in Korea in 1950 (long back-story!). How is the Trumpeter kit? After so long away, I want to keep it *relatively* simple, but I'm happy to tinker with the kit a little bit. For example, I'd quite like a cupola-mounted MG 131 to equate to the US .50 cal, so if anyone knows of a 1/35 version, that'd be great.

Thanks!

I always like these "What ifs". The E50 is a good starting point for an early 50s AFV.

If you want to show that the design has evolved since the war, you might want to consider updating a couple things:

- the engine deck could be changed to something indicative of a newer diesel as opposed to the WW II gas engine.
- a new bustle on the turret for a radio and some ammo stowage. Kinda like the M47 turret except out of welded plate rather than cast steel.
- a fume extractor on the barrel
- lose the IR system on the cupola but add an IR searchlight on the mantlet for a 50's era internal IR system.
- stowage boxes on the turret and a stowage rack on the bustle.
- bazooka plates over the suspension

Cool stuff like that...

Paul

What kind of main armament would the E50 have had by 1950? Long-barrelled 88, maybe with a perforated muzzle brake?

There are some nice after-market barrels for the 88 on the E-50 if interested. There has also been a development process for the World of Tanks game that modified the designs to have a rear transmission. Somewhat imagineered but still different.




Matt

Don't go with an MG131. Heck the REAL Bundeswehr used the MG42 which eventually morphed into the MG3, currently in use today!

Yeah, but I fancy an MG42 by the loader's hatch then an MG131 for a bit more oomph, like the Browning .50 cal.

With those changes the E(inheits)panzer-5 will look a lot like the welded steel turret versions of the Standard-Panzer aka Leopard 1(A3) Just add return-rollers

Well the Brit 20 pdr (84mm) and the American 90mm were in service at that point, so the 88 would still be a valid caliber, but as I mentioned above, a fume extractor near the middle of the barrel would make it look more modern than the plain long 88. Now, if the hull & turret could handle the recoil of the original long 88 with no brake, then the updated 88 w/ fume extractor would not need a brake either, much like the 20 pdr was never fitted with a brake.

However, if you think a perforated brake looks cool, then have at it! The land of "What If" is very forgiving.

From an operational standpoint, by 1950 the Germans would have likely seen the benefits of the diesel and fitted new E-50s with that type of engine, but gasoline would have still been OK as long as the engine used had a history of reliability. In other words, a new, reliable E-50 engine at the end of WW II would have probably still been in service, but if they finished the war with the older Maybachs, they probably would have been good candidates for replacement shortly after production resumed after the war. You _could_ add a thermal shroud over the rear deck area like the back of the M48A2s & M60s.

If you keep the gasoline engine, perhaps the addition of extended rear hull fuel tanks (as was done on the Centurion)to increase range would be a good thing or even a temporary fuel drum rack as seen on M48s in Germany in the 50s.

All's fair in make believe, but if you are looking for the greatest amount of plausability, you can get hints from things that other nations were doing at teh same point in history.

The Soviets had already gone to a larger gun, but that was because the 100mm was only abuot as effective as the NATO 90mm & 84mm. The rounded shape of the T-55 would be out, of course, but NATO tanks had started to get a bit larger to increase crew comfort. The Germans would have followed suit, in this case perhaps adding that turret bustle I mentioned with maybe an AC unit inside or external stowage boxes for crew kit. The tank may have picked up bazooka plates or an increased capability coincidence rangefinder (wider spacing than the stock E-50.)

All kinds of fun things.

Paul

Also pondering a group of infantry trudging past - can't decide between M44 battle dress and reversible white/camo two piece suits.

Depending on how much fun you want to have, there are some interesting figures in 1/35 based on the "Dust" game.

http://www.dustgame.com/products_d.php?nid=2&id=1
http://www.dustgame.com/products_d.php?nid=2&id=24
http://www.dustgame.com/products_d.php?nid=2&id=21


Matt

I think the body armour and shoulder-mounted rockets are a bit sci-fi for me, but really interesting, thanks!

I'm trying to work out what German soldiers of the same vintage as US and Commonwealth soldiers would be toting, based on what was actually happening in '44/'45, so StuGs all round, I think. I wondered about making them Alpenkorps, with puttees under M44 blouses, and mountain caps. Or maybe Prussian Guard units in padded suits. So many choices!

Hi Eliot,

a friend once created a "re-enactment" of a Wehrmacht 1946 soldier. He was wearing the Leibermuster M45 camo pattern and the late 1945 steelhelmet, used after the war by the East-German NVA. Weapons could be StuG 44, FalLschirmjägergewehr 42 and Karabiner 43.
With these weapons and equipment, the Royal Bavarian Cavalry
would be superior over the US and Britsh troops in Korea.
I once build an E-100 in British Berlin Brigade urban camo.

Hans-Hermann

Thanks, Hans. I pondered a group of Fallschirmjäger figures, but I'm thinking I'm going to go for M44 blouses, gaiters and ankle boots, with StuG 44s, maybe a line Bavarian infantry regiment. Most in helmets, but maybe an NCO in a side cap.

What do we think the tank crew would be wearing? Black Panzer uniforms, or would those have been superseded by camo versions by the early 50s? Thinking of making it the regimental adjutant's tank. Might give him a British cavalry-style coloured side cap, for a splash of jollity.

All this entirely speculative at the moment, but please keep the ideas coming, and maybe I'll tell you the whole back story...

There is also an old Dragon figure set that might work?




Matt

Might get some parts from them, but out of the box they're a bit too "in action" for what I have in mind.

OK, the infantry are, I think, going to be in M44 feldblusen, either with normal helmets, or else with NVA-style helmets (which the Wehrmacht was looking at using to replace the coal scuttle).

The tank commander (Prince Richard of Bavaria) is going to be in the black Panzer uniform with a light blue side cap with scarlet band (a bit like the tent cap the QRH wear). Not sure yet about the rest of the crew, but probably one or two in Panzer black and the rest in camo. I may also throw in a staff officer in M44 but with a peaked cap.

Coolness. I like the idea of the QRH style or maybe even a hussar styled cap on the officer.

Perhaps by 1950 the camo or plain green tank coverall would be more likely. Pretty much every army in the world was using a one-piece coverall at that time, but paired with a black beret and the "household cavalry" style cap, it would still harken back to the panzertruppen.

The uniforms & equipment of the infantry sound good, but you might want to add in just one of the "1946" style wonderweapons in the Dragon set just to indicate that the Royal Bavarian army hadn't lost it's innovative touch.

Really looking forward to seeing what this looks like when done.

Paul

Am also pondering a paint scheme for the E-50. Might the Germans have gone down the all-green route, like the US and the UK, by the early '50s? (Easier to paint!) After all, it's how the Bundeswehr painted its Pattons and Leopard 1s.

Eliot, it all kinda depends on the details of your back-story, and how Germany emerged from the war. If they capitulated in some limited way then you'd expect a strong Allied influence on post-War equipment and paint schemes, but if they somehow fought off the Allies and reached a separate peace then there's no reason to think they wouldn't just keep on developing Wermacht designs. Either way, the troops would be using assault rifles (more firepower!) and wearing baggy tunics/coats rather than tailored uniforms, as this was already the trend in 1945.

Bear in mind that the much-debated paint orders at the end of the war were meant to give German equipment built in mid-late 1945 an Olive Green base colour (instead of dark yellow), onto which camo would be applied. Projecting forward to 1950, your E50 should be Olive, and the camo depends on details of unit deployment. (Were they planned to be there long enough to make adding camo worth the effort? Which season was it? etc...) Lots of interesting possibilities to explore!

Tom

Hey Eliot,

with Meng`s A39 Tortoise and Dragons T28, how about a diorama like "Storming the Kim Il Sung line"?
As for historical "background", how about if the bomb plot against Hitler on July 20, 1944 worked out and Germany joined the Western Allies in the struggle against the communism?
Maybe Germany become a kingdom again?

Just my 2 cents

Hans-Hermann