_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
Hosted by Darren Baker
References for Chieftain tank?
HermannB
Visit this Community
Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 4,099 posts
Armorama: 4,067 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 06:50 AM UTC
Hi all,

I just discovered an unbuild Tamiya Chieftain kit in my stash. Before I spend 90 Euros into an AA update set and 35 Euros into Friul tracks I wonder if there are good reference books on the Chieftain available. Is there a Chieftain "bible"?

Hans-Hermann
ninjrk
Visit this Community
Alabama, United States
Joined: January 26, 2006
KitMaker: 1,381 posts
Armorama: 1,347 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 07:06 AM UTC
http://www.amazon.com/Chieftain-Rob-Griffin/dp/1861264380/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353783725&sr=1-5&keywords=Chieftain+%28Tank%29 is probably the best historical one out there by far. Darned tough to find though, so the Osprey New Vanguard #80 might be the easier way to go.

Matt
HermannB
Visit this Community
Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 4,099 posts
Armorama: 4,067 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 09:13 AM UTC
Hi there,

haven`t though about Osprey right now, thanks for the hint.

Hans-Hermann
Keef1648
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 10:19 AM UTC
I agree, the Chieftain 'Bible' so to speak, is the book 'Chieftain' by Rob Griffin.

http://www.amazon.com/Chieftain-Rob-Griffin/dp/1861264380

It explains every mark and recognizable exterior update and feature from start to finish as well as the tanks history.

Great pictures (Black and White) throughout the book.
I have it on my shelf and his book on the Conquerer as well.

Many colored photos can be found on the web.

By the way isn't Rob an Armorama member?

We were both Junior Leaders at Bovington at the same time.

Keith.
25PDRFG
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: August 09, 2009
KitMaker: 187 posts
Armorama: 181 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 07:23 PM UTC
Give this one a try http://www.castoff-models.co.uk/ it may save you a few pennys
HermannB
Visit this Community
Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 4,099 posts
Armorama: 4,067 posts
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 07:55 PM UTC
@ all,

thanks for the hints, prove very helpful. If time comes, I give Castoff a try, saves roughly the half price of AA.

Hans-Hermann
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - 01:31 PM UTC
Bob Griffin has a new Chieftain book coming out in the next few months from Kagero publishing. It will include colour plates, plans, manual diagrams and plenty of colour and black and white photos. It will prove worth the wait. The Tamiya kit is OK as a starting point for a late Mk2 conversion, and makes a good early Mk3 out of the box, but needs surgery for later marks. Castoff has some good sets to make later marks, and some useful accessories like crew helmets and stowage, but if you have the cash, the AA sets are the best available.
Regards

Merlin
Keef1648
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 12:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Bob Griffin has a new Chieftain book coming out in the next few months from Kagero publishing. It will include colour plates, plans, manual diagrams and plenty of colour and black and white photos. It will prove worth the wait. The Tamiya kit is OK as a starting point for a late Mk2 conversion, and makes a good early Mk3 out of the box, but needs surgery for later marks. Castoff has some good sets to make later marks, and some useful accessories like crew helmets and stowage, but if you have the cash, the AA sets are the best available.
Regards

Merlin



I agree with your comments but the beast in the Tamiya box is not an early Mk.3 it is a hodge podge at best of part Mk.2 (early NBC pack) and part Mk.3 (lights and turret bin).

The model has to be modified up or down in order to produce a real life production vehicle.

I look forward to seeing Rob's new book.


Keith.
jon_a_its
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: April 29, 2004
KitMaker: 1,336 posts
Armorama: 1,137 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 04:42 AM UTC
Rob Locke did a tweaks list in 2000 on MissingLynx

& Ken Holland did a Castoff conversion build report on MilMod

Enjoy!
bigmal
Visit this Community
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: February 21, 2011
KitMaker: 211 posts
Armorama: 176 posts
Posted: Thursday, November 29, 2012 - 05:15 AM UTC
I agree, in the box, it is a late Mk2, any thing beyond that requires a lot of changes.

I`m not complaining as it is the only kit available.

So come on kit manufacturers give us an accurate Chieftain.

We already have more than enough Tigers, Panthers ETC.

Malc.
HermannB
Visit this Community
Bayern, Germany
Joined: October 14, 2008
KitMaker: 4,099 posts
Armorama: 4,067 posts
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 - 02:21 AM UTC
Hi gents,

thanks for all the infos and updates. I will definitly discuss the theme Chieftain with Trumpeter. If Bob Griffin`s Chieftain book come out it it hopefully The resource for any Chieftain manufacturer. I hope will see a review here.

Hans-Hermann
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 - 09:05 AM UTC
The Tamiya kit is a mishmash of Mk2 and Mk3.From what I can see the main difference between an early Mk3 and the Tamiya kit is the commander's cupola, which in the kit is a No.15 Mk1 and needs to be a No.15 Mk2 for a Mk3. In the Tamiya kit the NBC pack and lights are correct for a Mk3 early (the kit NBC pack is not correct for a Mk3/3 of course) and the engine deck should be right for a Mk2 or early Mk3 as far as I know. For a Mk2 the kit has the wrong headlamps, wrong set for the turret stowage on the right hand side of the turret, and (for early Mk2s) the wrong rear hull stowage bins. The Mk3/3 is where the more modern features start to pop up, and things like the Tank Laser Sight start to be introduced, and the engine deck layout changes with the Mk5 onwards. I really wish that the Mk2 and Mk1 were better represented in the resin conversion industry, at least the later marks can be converted nicely from AA and Castoff! That said, Dave Foster of New Zealand has converted the Tamiya kit into stupendously accurate renditions of an early Mk2 and a Mk11 with card, rod, wire and plenty of elbow grease! The Tamiya kit is a good starting point, we need to see a new tool Chieftain though! merlin
Anto992
Visit this Community
Ireland
Joined: June 11, 2012
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 212 posts
Posted: Friday, November 30, 2012 - 10:02 AM UTC
Hello Hans

I have built and am in the process of starting another one
(Bridglayer) in the next week or two.

If you send me your email l will send you pics.

My bible for the Chieftain is this book from Simon Dunston
http://www.amazon.com/Chieftain-Military-vehicles-fotofax/dp/085368894X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1354312245&sr=1-2&keywords=simon+dunstan+chieftain

It is full of great pics and in the field and out of the field.

send me an email if you are stuck.

The book by Bob is a great read with great insights to the Chieftain but Simons book is full of pics

Anto

Anto
Keef1648
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 06:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Tamiya kit is a mishmash of Mk2 and Mk3.From what I can see the main difference between an early Mk3 and the Tamiya kit is the commander's cupola, which in the kit is a No.15 Mk1 and needs to be a No.15 Mk2 for a Mk3. In the Tamiya kit the NBC pack and lights are correct for a Mk3 early (the kit NBC pack is not correct for a Mk3/3 of course) and the engine deck should be right for a Mk2 or early Mk3 as far as I know. For a Mk2 the kit has the wrong headlamps, wrong set for the turret stowage on the right hand side of the turret, and (for early Mk2s) the wrong rear hull stowage bins. The Mk3/3 is where the more modern features start to pop up, and things like the Tank Laser Sight start to be introduced, and the engine deck layout changes with the Mk5 onwards. I really wish that the Mk2 and Mk1 were better represented in the resin conversion industry, at least the later marks can be converted nicely from AA and Castoff! That said, Dave Foster of New Zealand has converted the Tamiya kit into stupendously accurate renditions of an early Mk2 and a Mk11 with card, rod, wire and plenty of elbow grease! The Tamiya kit is a good starting point, we need to see a new tool Chieftain though! merlin



Mark 5's were the vehicles upgraded with TLS and then MRS. (muzzle Reference Systems) and the .50 ranging guns withdrawn at the same time.
An interesting point to note is, it was hard to pressurize and seal the turret for NBC conditions without the .50 mounted as it left a hole in the turret!

So, until the turrets were modified (plugged) the ranging gun was fitted even though ammunition wasn't in the bomb load, plus the gunners TLS sight no longer carried the ranging dot marks.

My particular mount in 1980 was an 8/2C and had a X15 commanders sight.

This proved to be a problem and not acceptable and was withdrawn and replaced with the X10. It magnified heat haze thus greater distortion and hampered true visibility at closer ranges.

Here are two pictures for color reference.
This is cleaning up after a major exercise in 82.


Local training area and waiting for my loader to produce lunch.
Mk.8/2C.



Keith.
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2012 - 07:35 AM UTC
Those are great pics and thanks for posting them. If you have more I would love to see them. What regiment were you in and were you in when they received their first Chieftains? The reason I ask is I am doing some research on Chieftain markings, particularly on those worn by Chieftain in the early 1970s. Some of the schemes were quite colourful for UK based Chieftains at the end of the 1960s and start of the 1970s and colour pics are especially rare for those beasties.
18Bravo
Visit this Community
Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
Armorama: 6,097 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 01:39 PM UTC
H-H,
Ick bin gerad' dabei, 'ne ganze Menge Buecher und alte Modelle zu verkaufen. Die hier kannste kaufen wenn Du Lust hast.
Schick mir einen PM falls du Interesse hast.

MfG

mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 10:40 PM UTC
The folks at Kagero have authorised me to announce that Photosniper 7 by Robert Griffin will be on sale in late January barring any holdups at the printer. The full title will be: Photo Sniper 007'Chieftain Main Battle Tank Development and Active Service from Prototypes to Mk.11.'

It covers the gun tank versions only and will consist of 84 pages, is chock full of photos in colour and black and white showing the vehicle in service and plenty of detail shots. The Mk.11 at Shrivenham gets a full walk around treatment. Plans for a Mk.3/3 and a Mk.11, and ORBATS for the author's regiment in 1970 and 1989 with callsigns are included. To finish it off the team at Kagero have included a variety of colour schemes for the modeller, with over a dozen colour plates showing the Chieftain in various liveries worn in British service as well as Iranian and Kuwaiti vehicles.
The historical information focuses on the development of the Chieftain the gun tank role and its subsequent service in the British Army over 28 years. As the book's editor I can tell you all that a great deal of effort went into this one, and Bob has outdone himself. If you have the Crowood book, this will fill the visual gap with its excellent photographic content alone.

Merry Xmas to all,

Merlin
Dutchy3RTR
Visit this Community
England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: June 28, 2009
KitMaker: 340 posts
Armorama: 337 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 11:22 PM UTC
Many thanks Merlin (and of course Rob), I'm looking forward to seeing it.
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Friday, December 21, 2012 - 09:06 AM UTC
Here is the official book cover etc

http://www.dtpkagero.p1718.futuro.pl/2013/January/index.html

--
By the way Ken can you drop me a line?
Keef1648
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 22, 2012 - 01:32 AM UTC
This is from Exercise Crusader 80, one of the largest exercises ever to take place in Germany, only Reforger 84 was bigger I believe.

I am the commander in the rear Chieftiain wearing the Beret.


Keith.
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 23, 2012 - 03:38 AM UTC
That is another great pic Keith, what kind of vehicle availability would a BAOR Chieftain regiment had by 1980? The Sundance program would have been well underway by then, possibly even complete.
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Monday, December 24, 2012 - 05:34 AM UTC
http://maquette-garden.forumactif.com/t22745-kagero-photosniper-007-chieftain#298635

If you check out this posting on Maquette Garden you can see the test shots of some of the Kagero Chieftain book pages
Keef1648
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - 12:54 AM UTC
The last of the Mk.3 series were gone and the norm was Mk.5 and 8's. by the end of 1982 our regiment in Detmold had fully changed over to Mk.8 and MRS. The Berlin Brigade was starting to change to 'Stillbrew' fitted mounts.


Keith.
mprobinson
Visit this Community
Canada
Joined: January 09, 2011
KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2012 - 04:20 AM UTC
Hi Keith was MRS part of the Mk6,7,8 fit or was it simply a standardized mod applied without any change to mark number? I understand that Mk6,7,8 was related to rebuilding Mk2,3 and 3/3 to Mk5 build standard and with IFCS fitted and that Mk9 was designation for any of the Mk6,7,8 fitted for APFSDS-T ammunition stowage. Mk 10 was Mk9 with Stillbrew fitted and Mk11 was TOGS fitted (technically even if Stillbrew was not fitted, and at least a couple were not, though they seem to have been trials only and probably later fitted with the Stillbrew).I also understand that WT and powerpack upgrades had no effect on vehicle mark. Is this correct? Hope you had a good Xmas and have ahappy New Year. This holiday has already done serious damage to my liver.
Keef1648
Visit this Community
South Carolina, United States
Joined: January 23, 2008
KitMaker: 1,240 posts
Armorama: 1,192 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 27, 2012 - 04:29 AM UTC
To the best of my recollection (I am at work) the letter after the Mk. numbers indicated radio upgrades such as my mount. 8/2 c.... The c indicating Clansman radio system.

The MRS and light source (box) was added to the MBT after the TLS. and removal of the .50 ranging gun.

My instructor (Gunnery) books are in my modelling shed so I will confirm this during the weekend for you.

Keith.
 _GOTOTOP