Would a Wirbelwind in Normandy have been applied with Zimmerit? If anyone knows that would be great, because I have noooo idea.

Thanks

-Conor

It's possible, but unlikely. I believe that the factories only zimmed the MTBs and assault guns. As an AA unit I don't think the crew would have been motivated enough to do a field application since they would rarely be in a close quarters fighting situation.

Hi Conor,

I can confirm that the Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind has be coated with Zimmerit. The Spielberger Panzer IV book show that Wirbelwind and Ostwind vehicles had the Zimmerit coating applied on the hull. The reason therefore was that the Flakpanzers were build on surplus tank hulls and so hulls with Zimmerit coating were not unlikely.

HTH
Hans-Hermann

...So can I





HTH

Frenchy

Well s**t, time to get some putty and get to work.

I was hoping they didn't have any hahaha. Oh well...

Thanks guys

-Conor

Sorry tell tell you, but ya LOL.

Here is the one in Camp Borden...






cheers

Talking about the use of Wirbelwinds in Normandy, here's a thread from ML :

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/992897724/Wirbelwind

The 12 SS Pz Division "prototype" mentioned in the thread above can be seen here :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/deckarudo/6897617463/

HTH

Frenchy

Good to know! I just picked up a Wirbelwind kit this week and have been looking into options for building it. Looking for a good non-SS unit to represent.

Jon

I guess I stand slightly corrected....but I did say it was possible.

Conor;

Hi! Wirbelwinds (Flakpanzer IV Wirbelwind; 2cm flakvierling 38 auf fahrgestel Pz.Kpfw. IV) and zimmerit...

As I think has been noted above posts, the wirbelwind was a conversion of an older Panzer IV to a flakpanzer, created by swapping a large open-top flak-turret and gun assembly in for the normal long-gun "MBT" turret. These fabrications were built by OstBau Werke - Sagan starting in mid - later May 1944, with somewheres around 85 - 100 or so being completed by NOV 1944, when this production ceased. OstBau used available running hulls obtained from units turning in badly-damaged Pz IV for refurbishment. Different sources variably indicate that these tanks included Pz.IV Ausf. F, G and H, and some early J hulls.

So, did wirbelwinds get or have zimmerit? YES - many did, as seen in various period pics. It seems likely that zimm'd wirbels had zimm because they were built on tanks which already had zimm - as there is no clear record that OstBau did any zimm application during their rebuild process. From this, knowing whether the original base hull was an F, G, H or J matters.

As a matter of record, no F or G received factory zimmerit, as these were all built prior to SEP 1943, when factory zimm application started. The first 1000 or so H also "escaped" factory zimm, for the same reason. Later H and all J hulls used for wirbels would have been factory zimm'd. As to whether ANY Pz IV was actually "field-zimm'd"... any such job would likely have really been a repair shop event and not some crew effort conducted between shell-bursts. There probably were a few, but this may not matter for this!

IF the question is about Wirbelwinds at Normandy (ca June 06 - 20, 1944?) and whether any would have had zimm... there simply cannot have been many wirbelwinds there by 06 June 1944 if they only started production in mid-May over in Silesia (Sagan). Of whichever few there could have been, probably some were zimm'd, based on the guess that it was "first in - first used" for the hulls sent to Sagan.

So... IF you decide to build a G wirbel, then it most likely had no (factory) zimm (and there is a recent Dragon Wirbel G kit exactly for this!). And then there are available both wirbel H w/ and w/o zimm kits... and you (like I w/ my ancient Tamiya rendition of this thing) always have the option of adding your own!

Seems like you have some choices - albeit not much record for wirbels in Normandy in early June, 1944!

Bob

Yup! That's the kit I've got, so I guess no Zimm for it (thank God.) I'm hopefully going to be putting it into a scene with a Tiger & some Panzer Grenadiers (9th or 10th SS maybe), but I'm not sure yet as I don't know if any Wirbelwinds would be up close to the combat.

Thanks a lot

-Conor

So... Looks like I got somewhat ahead of myself! Dragon does NOT have a Wirbel H with zimm kit... The D's zimm'd Wirbel kit is an "early production" Wirbel Ausf. G w/zimm! Somehow I had convinced myself a little while back that the new zimm'd Wirbel kit was an H...

I'll still stick with pretty much all I said above, save that I was quite off on that zimm'd kit version! Looks indeed like folks have choices of Dragon Wirbel G with zimm or without zimm, or you can have an H without zimm.

Maybe, seeing as more H hulls would have had zimm, most H-based Wirbels would have been zimm'd, so it would make sense for the D to send out an H with zimm version, to complete the Wirbel platoon!

Bob

Well if there was only one Wirbelwind in Normandy without Zimmerit, that's the one I'm building

Thanks again

-Conor

Connor,

I like that attitude! To he__ with the zimmerit! Have fun and enjoy building for the sake of enjoying the build, it's a great hobby.

Keep up the great work.

Kevin

Providing there was at least one Wirbelwind used in Normandy indeed...

Apparently, only 3 prototypes had been "scratchbuilt" by the 12 SS Pz Division and used there :

http://www.colleurs-de-plastique.com/forums/showthread.php?32489-Proto-Flakvierling-en-Normandie&highlight=wirbelwind

But Wirbelwinds have been used later in France. Here's one belonging to the 111 Panzer Brigade in Lorraine in September 1944 (no Zimmerit ) :

Anyway it's up to you

Frenchy

Frenchy,

As usual, you come up with the best pics. Now I know which Wirbel I'm gonna build when I get around to it!

Thanks!

Jon

You're welcome Jon. I guess this one belongs to the same unit, but this time it has Zimmerit... :



Frenchy

Yeah...!

The first pic Frenchy posted is the G which is probably reasonably captured in the recent Dragon Wirbel G (w/o zimm) kit... that's the one I got that G kit for! (OK, I've seen this pic many a time - I didn't know whether it was or not anywheres near Normandy - it's the nice, zimm-free "G-ness" of the thing which caught my eye! ) From where I sit, I cannot say that the second pic is a G or an H - it does look like there's a little zimm down around that running-gear...! Maybe that's the one for the currently-discussed G w/ zimm kit!

@Conor: I think Frenchy's first pic makes my case for G w/o zimm available in 1944 and provides you the apparent option at a zimm-free Wirbel in or near Normandy somewheres in Jun 1944! Get buildin'!

Bob

Good, no zimm. I got Dragon's "Achtung-Jabo" figure kit to use with it too. The figures won't fit in regularly so I'll just butcher them to fit in right

I've actually gone and built the turret while this post went on and on, and it was actually pretty easy. I might be able to post a picture tomorrow.

Thanks again

-Conor