Hi there,
Been a while since posting on here but need a bit of help finding some reference pics please.
I'm planning a late war build of a pzkpfw 2, although rare, many were still on regimental books for recon or staff duties, plus many obsolete afvs often were retained for anti-partisan/police duties and even those in driver training schools sometimes found themselves thrown back into the fray when things got desperate. Over the years I have seen several examples but can't find them again for love nor money! I have been through my copies of panzer wrecks 3-11 believing I had seen one in here but the best I can come up with is an example in 1944 on page 60/61 in pw11.
In particular I'd love to find an example of an early ausf a-c that were later uparmoured and fitted with ausf f model turrets with the commanders cupola.

Perhaps a long shot?

Appreciate any help guys.

Cheers,

James

James;

Hi! Maybe what needs to be done here is to have a guinea-pig post a "provocative" opinion note - which will act like a lightening-rod and draw out someone with pics and better knowledge (Frenchy, maybe?)!

So... Squeal! I'll be it (the G-P)! Zzzzap!

OK - far as I have been able to find, yes, there were certainly Pz II in service right up to the end in 05-45. I think there are a couple of pics to be seen in one or another vol of the Concord Military series pubs. Much like old KleinerPanzerBefehlsWagens 1B and various marks of Pz. 38(t) - old tanks just kept hanging around, and not just in training schools. Also for rear-area and anti-partisan duties, occupation forces in Norway and in the Balkans, etc., I would expect.

I would NOT expect (here's that "provocative opinion" being flung out like the red rag!) that many, if any at all, were re-cobbled by swapping F turrets onto existing older A/B/C hulls. There were plenty of F tanks and probably few or no spare F turrets lying around looking for a convenient hull to land on - and actually little to be gained by doing the swap. (II-C had cupolas, and all II A-C and F had the same guns, so...).

So one could, I think, reasonably build a C or F as being in remaining service into '44 or even '45. Less likely but probably still possible, an A/B/C. - but fewer of these likely survived. The D was much rarer and most were converted to flammpanzers and later to Marder II. I would guess that most F were also converted... Any of these remaining tanks would probably be repainted to later colors and schemes (base dunkelgelb, maybe rotbraun and / or olive or other green camo?).

Just my opinion, of course!

Cheers!

Bob

I'm afraid I ain't got much to offer on this one ....

According to the captions, these pics have been taken in 1944 :

France :



The Netherlands (Nijmegen) :



Here's a related thread about the one above. I've found a colorized version of the picture mentioned in the first post of this thread (the link in the post doesn't work...) :



Italy :



HTH

Frenchy

Haven't expected to see you here James It's nice to visit the old good forum hah? I just found this yesterday don't know if this will be of any help (sorry no fancy F turret on old main body).

CLICK

HTH


spit

What about this one ?

May 5, 1945. Viborg, Denmark :




from this thread

Frenchy

Hey,

I know there are at least a few late war panzer ii's in the PANZERWRECKS collection. I am unfortunately away from my collection at the moment, I will post in a few days.

Mark

Way Cool Stuff, Frenchy & Spitfire, WAY COOL!

The first frenchy pic certainly looks like it could be an B or earlier C with the up-armored bow and turret applique but still having the bullet-splash and flat plate hatches of the "pre-cupola" types! The others look like they are (were) most likely F tanks - certes the last "Denmark" specimen. It is clear that 1) these later-war survivors could indeed occur in many theatres and 2) they certainly sported the range of later paint-schemes! Of particular interest to me is that 1945 Danish specimen - it has a hard-edged tricolor scheme associated with late-war equipment more generally factory-painted (i.e., Hetzers, Pz IV J, Jagdpanzer IV, Panther G, SdKfz 251 versions, SdKfz 234 versions, Tiger II all sported these HE schemes in last of 1944 and into '45 and factories were operating on paint-orders to do thusly - instead of the prior routine of issuing vehicles in dunkelgelb and letting crew do their cam thing in the field)) - way cool!

I hope all who look at the links will pass gently over the bits about "Wehrmacht Olive, i.e., "yellow""... no such "Wehrmacht olive" that I know of (not to be confused with olivegrun...) - I would be sure that it was actually dunkelgelb that was being called out.

So, "the sharks rose up to the chum", as it were and our info-cup has filled nicely! I think I'll get an F going and do it up with a hard-edged tricolor!

And here some probably thought that these II tanks needed to be either gray or gray w/ brown or some DAK scheme!

Looks like there's a raft-load of options for these beasts (and yeah, just a little challenge for specific unit ID, etc... but that's a fun part of all this, right?!) But still looks like no F turrets on older A/B/C hulls - patience, friends, Patience!

Bob

James,
Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures to share. But in the Wydawnictwo title "Breslau 1945" there is a T,O & E for a "1st Armored Combat Group 'Ventzke'" which operated inside the city, and it has 6 Pz II listed as part of this armored group. No mention if they are a/b/c or f, but they are listed.

Hungary 1945 :



Frenchy

Nice! Looks to be an F with the later smoke-candle box and muffler and conical-hub idler. Looks like we can add Hungary 1945 end-days to the list of Panzer II locations!

Have any idea(s) what those three curved-form clips around the upeer side of the turret were for? They look to me like some sort of cradles for a tube or pipe-like item - but that item would have had to bend around the turret to fit into those clips... and frame antennae as seen on other vehicles would not fit this set-up. And they don't "say" "spare track-link" racks to me - somehow I just don't picture spare track being hung around a Pz II turret, unlike on a Panther or Tiger! I do, however, freely admit that it COULD have happened - I just have never seen any mention or pic of that on a II!

Bob

Hard to say, Bob. By that point of the war they could be for anything from stowage to home made added armor.

I get a kick out of the 3rd picture in Frenchy's original set. At first glance it looked like someone stuck an 88 on that poor MkII!

A hung piece of applique extra armor... now that would be interesting! Sort of mini turret-schurzen; small versions of what the Big Boys had! Hmmmm. a teasing build idea for those looking for the different opportunity!

88 on a II.... well..... if they could put a 7.5cm StuK on a IB... that II was a little bigger, right?

For the detail-minded: Take a look at those return rollers! You can see that at least one still had a marked seam around it! I would be willing to bet that this roller had been around on this thing for awhile and many km of run! Now of course one still would need to contend with those show judges "knowing a goof when they see one" when they look under your track-run and see a seam there...!

Bob

Wow guys,

Thanks for such an awesome response, especially over the holidays!

Frenchy, it's been a while, but as always you prove you are the reference master and never fail to produce the goods!

Pawel, do you monitor my armorama movements or something? The second I step out of the woodwork your'e there! Good to hear from you did you get my response to the lost gold miner e-mail? Hope you and your family have had a great xmas and new years anyway mate!

Onto the pics.....

The photos so far posted show that 'plenty' of Pzkpfw II's were around in the late war years. Not all had been converted into SPG's or munitionschelppers and/or had there turrets relocated as panzerstellung.

Also it is clear that not all of these are the latest models (ausf F) as Frenchy's link even shows an Ausf A/B with late war camo and an Ausf F muffler, very rare I'd think?!

Pawel's thread actually shows exactly the kind of thing I was after as far as variants are concerned, which is Ausf C chassis (easily definable by the angled divers glacis plate) retrofitted with applique armour on the hull and turret front along with added cupola's and Ausf F pattern stowage bins on the fenders.

I have heard the opinion that cupola's were fitted to late Ausf C models as standard but this doesn't make sense if Ausf D and E model turrets were manufactured without. I understand this was actually a retrofit program to increase battlefield survivability of the Ausf C which was the most numerous tank in the german arsenal in the early part of the war, and cupola and armour upgrades (amongst others I'm sure) were rolled out to as many vehicles as possible to this end.

I await contradiction......

Point is we have examples of Ausf C hulls with added armour and cupolas around in the later part of the war.

Panzer bob's enthusiasm is catching, and I like the ideas flowing about different modifications. A link from Pawel's thread in the axis history forum to missing lynx under "Panzerbeobachtungswagen II in the Falaise Pocket" has some very intersesting photos of late war panzer II including one with a "lynx" style jerry can mount on the turret. I belevive these older vehicles had plenty of time to get field mods and so plenty of wierd and wonderful additions for thge moddeler will be present!

Happy new year guys and please keep the pics/ideas flowing!

Hi James

According to Achtung Panzer website, "On October 1 of 1944, there were total of 386 Panzerkampfwagen II tanks in German service." so we should manage to find at least a few more pics

H.P.

I don't have the pics handy but I know they exist of one of the few PzIIs that the 12SS Pz obtained right before the Normandy operation. At least one was used in the defence of the Caen airport.
J

Talking about Normandy...



H.P.

If I were in one of those things, I'd sure think about it. By 1944, those 15mm turret walls must have feeling mighty thin! With all the allied aircraft flying around, I'd want something that would at least have a chance of stopping a .50cal round.

[quote]Wow guys,

Thanks for such an awesome response, especially over the holidays!


Onto the pics.....

The photos so far posted show that 'plenty' of Pzkpfw II's were around in the late war years. Not all had been converted into SPG's or munitionschelppers and/or had there turrets relocated as panzerstellung. [quote]

Yes - it does appear that many II tanks continued in service 'til the end. Security, air-field protection, anti-partisan and occupation forces. Probably not fielded as "MBT" in front-line service - that would be simply suicide. Not that we should ignore desperation as a motivating force in 1945!

[quote] Also it is clear that not all of these are the latest models (ausf F) as Frenchy's link even shows an Ausf A/B with late war camo and an Ausf F muffler, very rare I'd think?! [quote]

I would place more money on an "A/B/C" II sporting the later muffler and smoke-bomb box as being a later-production C - II-C often had these fittings in the DAK from 1941, and it would be reasonable to presume that they went to DAK/Africa with those later-style fittings in place; so some also probably did not go to Africa but instead to Russia...


[quote] Pawel's thread actually shows exactly the kind of thing I was after as far as variants are concerned, which is Ausf C chassis (easily definable by the angled divers glacis plate) retrofitted with applique armour on the hull and turret front along with added cupola's and Ausf F pattern stowage bins on the fenders. [quote]

It appears that all C had that added cheek armor on the turret - which carried over to the F. Some - maybe many - C were retrofitted with a commander's cupola during the Blitz and after - (but see below...) and there were apparently C with cupolas and with right-fender long boxes of the "F style" in the Blitz in 1940. You of course have to take the legends provided with posted pics with some caution.

[quote] I have heard the opinion that cupola's were fitted to late Ausf C models as standard but this doesn't make sense if Ausf D and E model turrets were manufactured without. I understand this was actually a retrofit program to increase battlefield survivability of the Ausf C which was the most numerous tank in the german arsenal in the early part of the war, and cupola and armour upgrades (amongst others I'm sure) were rolled out to as many vehicles as possible to this end.

I await contradiction...... [quote]

Delish!

Sadly, those WWII Germans have done in modern armor modelers and our sense of what "makes sense" once again with the Pz II!

I would agree with you IF the D (and its very similar brother, E) actually prescribed to "sense" ... but alas they did NOT! The A/B/C tanks were in production from JULY 1937 thru APRIL 1940. The C - the most common of these and the "final version" using the A/B/C hull design - came out from MAY 1938 thru that APRIL 1940 time-line.

The D/E version was created as an alternative design to provide recon troops with a faster tank. It introduced a new suspension and a reconfigured hull. The D/E was made from MAY 1938 thru AUGUST 1939... So, D/E was produced alongside the early and mid-production C! D/E came off the line with early C turrets - the same turret with added cheek armor and flat hatches as seen on II B and C tanks.! In the end, the D/E went to Poland, demonstrated a poor x-country performance, and were pulled from front-line panzer service in mar 1940 - so apparently missed out serving in the Blitz (there may have been a very few still in panzer units in MAY 1940, but...).

The F was a direct development following the final C versions, and brought on a revised hull design and some other bits as a final upgrade to that series. ALL F turrets also had a commander's cupola fitted... F entered production only in MAR 1941 and ended in DEC 1942.

So much for sense!

As an aside: Pz II fans should avoid doing a II F in the brown and gray livery of the 1940 Blitz... F was not there. And all pics showing II with cupola and / or right-side long boxes and/or later-style mufflers and smoke-bomb boxes purporting to be taken in that 1940 Blitz MUST have been of upgraded A/B/C tanks. It's that or Dr. Who time! So where did he hide that Tardis?

[quote] Panzer bob's enthusiasm is catching, and I like the ideas flowing about different modifications. A link from Pawel's thread in the axis history forum to missing lynx under "Panzerbeobachtungswagen II in the Falaise Pocket" has some very intersesting photos of late war panzer II including one with a "lynx" style jerry can mount on the turret. I belevive these older vehicles had plenty of time to get field mods and so plenty of wierd and wonderful additions for thge moddeler will be present!

Happy new year guys and please keep the pics/ideas flowing! [quote]

Yes, there were lots of variants and many survivors and much opportunity to do things with the "lowly" II! IMHO, the II has been rather over-looked in terms of modelers working its history and use and seeing this stuff is certainly inspirational and exciting! So, yeah, I'm all excited and inspired!

Happy New Year to all and Let the Modeling Commence for 2013!

Bob

Just a quick one.

Have returned home to my references and have found that Panzerwrecks 1 has some great shots of Ausf a,b and c hulls still being used as tractors in 1945. dunklegelb and 3 tone camo present.

Interestingly Ausf F mufflers and stowage bins are common and even welded over 'battlescars' from the 'blitzkrieg' years are present.

James