Hello All

I hate to be asking but I dont have the depth of Knowldege nor the references you all have. So I come looking for help. I am looking at some British armor units that hit the beaches on D Day. 1 is the 13/18 and 20th Anti Tank and I belive 24lancers. but first the 13/18 C Sq

I see they were the standard 4 tank troop with a firefly included like most except for the one unit that had a whole troop of fireflys. I am looking for some turret name matching. Can you all fill in the gaps. I thought I read on a forum there was a champ or champion also but. I have know Idea. Im just trying to find out the Squadron and the Firefly's thanks.

RHQ
10- Bacalava
11-Normandy
12-Twelfth Knight
13- FF??
SHQ
60-
61- Charity Mk III ??
62-
A troop
63- Calamity?? MKIII
64-
65-
66- Conquest FF??
B Troop
67-Challenger MkIII
68-Charmer MKIII
69-Cameo MK III
70-Cavalier MKIII
C Troop
71- Carole FF VC
72-
73- Chancellor MK III??
74-
D Troop
75-
76-
77- Comrade MKIII
78-

The numbers ran sequentially as you note. The Troop Leader's tank was the lowest numbered vehicle, whilst the Firefly was the highest.

Of note is that only C Sqn used four-tank Troops (4 Troops, each of four tanks). A and B Sqns still retained the older three-tank Troop structure on D-Day (5 Troops, each of three tanks)

British Army Troops are numbered - not designated by letters

So it's 'No.1 Troop' or just '1 Troop' rather than 'A Troop'

Sqn Hq Trp
60 Sherman III
61 Sherman III
62 Sherman III
63 Sherman III

1 Trp
64 Sherman III
65 Sherman III
66 Sherman III T-152156 Conquest
67 Sherman Vc

2 Trp
68 Sherman III T-152277 Charmer
69 Sherman III T-146946 Calamity?
70 Sherman III T-152270 Cavalier
71 Sherman Vc T-228789 Carole

3 Trp
72 Sherman III
73 Sherman III
74 Sherman III (possibly Challenger)
75 Sherman Vc

4 Trp
76 Sherman III
77 Sherman III T-152153 Comrade
78 Sherman III
79 Sherman Vc

Troop not known
Sherman III T-151924 Chancellor
Sherman III T- 147151 Chimer
Sherman III T - 14717?

Also, don't forget the two 13/18 H Fireflies that may have beaten the DD tanks to the beach. These were the CB Fireflies (concrete buster) and they landed with the Royal Engineer units whose LCTs had pushed through the swimming DDs.

It is unlikely these were numbered as the crews were drawn from the 'left out of battle' personnel.

As a contrast, the other two Regts in 27th Armd Bde (both of whom landed on D-Day) used different systems. East Riding Yeomanry used numbers but the HQ Sqn used the highest numbers rather than the lowest.

Thus A Sqn had Fireflies numbered 2 and 6 for example. Note here that the Firely is numbered as the second vehicle in each Troop rather than the last.

Staffordshire Yeomanry didn't use numbers at all - instead they used large stencilled names on the hull sides (in yellow outline rather than solid).

The names were mostly indicative of the Squadron letter (C Sqn having names starting with 'C' for example) but there were exceptions - 'El Hamma' was a C Sqn Firefly.

Hope that helps a bit.

Regards,
John

John.

Thanks, 2 more small Questions. as for 69 I saw on a Model Website somwhere that 69 was Cameo. I think missing ?? 54. is where I saw it and also. That #12,13 or 73 could have been Chancellor.

Secondly is there a way to tell from the #'s if that tank was a mkIII early or Mid?

Eugene

Calling in the big guns!! Al,alan,kevin,paul,bear. Also A side note I found that IWM site while looking at that Guards sherman, but tried searching the photos, and kept saying sorry no matches. I tried 13/18, 13th/18th/ FGH/ Fort Garry Horse, ERY which got one return.??

PS. John I saw a picture yesterday with #69 being Cameo It's got a good side picture of its Serial. Still not 100% as I am new to this sherman world but. Ill see if I can find it in all of my bookmarks.

Eugene

Like most of the information gathering it is a hit and miss affair and what you seek is a momumental task. The Serial of the tank will only go so far as to identifying the type as they are serialled in batches and the batch ma contain moree than one sub type e.g. when changes are added to the production line.
The only definitive way t oID whether late or Early features is by photo.
Kevin Tucker and Dick Taylor have a listing of vehicle names and serials online and this is a living project so if you find new photos of vehicles showing name and numbers , units etc please share them with us and the list.
The latest update is here:
http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/books.php?book_id=171

Also Missing Lynx Allied Forum as well as here is an excellent place for help on subjects such as yours

Al

Roger

I got that, list and the serial # matched with Cameo. Ill try and find the Pic again.

Found it. Here is the Picture. Which shows the Serial # the Turret #69
http://www.iwmprints.org.uk/image/727281/mapham-j-sgt-a-sherman-tank-crew-of-c-squadron-13th-18th-royal-hussars-rest-and-write-letters-home-by-the-side-of-their-vehicle-normandy-10-june-1944.

And the info with the vic serial # and matching unit.SQ and trp.

http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/tables/Vehicle_Names_V2.pdf.

Thanks for the reminder regarding Cameo - I should have updated my references a while ago.

With regard to the census numbers, Al is right. The numbers were assigned to the vehicles (I think) as they arrived in the UK. Thus one shipment might contain several sub-variants or production batches and the numbering sequence would probably depend on something as basic as what order the vehicles were unloaded or perhaps what order they ended up being parked in the holding areas. It is likely that vehicles with similar numbers will have similar production features but you can't guarantee it.


Regards,
John

Mr Tapsell

No problem, I am glad that I could contribute somthing here to the Armor side of modeling, seeing that I havent even built a single kit yet, as well as a small piece of conformation about that tank in the history world, Thank you for all your hard work and keeping up that historical database. And tell Mr taylor thanks for the Turret # for Coupe De Grace of ERY.

Sincerely
Eugene