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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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tool for german ambush scheme
blaster76
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Posted: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 03:22 PM UTC
I have viewed several pictures and paintings of the 3 part ambush scheme used by the germans in WW2. In several of them the "dots" were kind of 3 pointed star/triangle pattern. I was wondering if there was a tool out there with this pattern on the tip that you could just dip in paint and press/stamp/dot on your kit.

Might be a worthwhile tool for someone to make and sell....for those of us less talented.....lol
Tiger_213
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Posted: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 03:40 PM UTC
Star/triangle pattern? How about a picture?

J's Work make a few masks for the German 'ambush' scheme;

http://www.jsworkmodel.com/
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - 04:29 PM UTC
I really don't know how; but, ye must've missed this:

Uschi van der Rosten



or this:

Alliance Modelworks
blaster76
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Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 02:37 PM UTC
OK the J's Works is what I had in mind. I looked at their sheet for the Hetzer and that was exactly what i meant. The other one has some unusual patterns but won't do what i want. The tool I was hoping for would enable you to paint your three part scheme, stamp your patterns onto the diferent colors without having to mask a whole bunch of stuff off. Put brown and green "dots" on the yellow and yellow on the brown and green. Quicker...easier...less mess....less clean up (airbrush)
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 03:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

OK the J's Works is what I had in mind. I looked at their sheet for the Hetzer and that was exactly what i meant. The other one has some unusual patterns but won't do what i want. The tool I was hoping for would enable you to paint your three part scheme, stamp your patterns onto the diferent colors without having to mask a whole bunch of stuff off. Put brown and green "dots" on the yellow and yellow on the brown and green. Quicker...easier...less mess....less clean up (airbrush)


Well, quicker and easier is something we all look for. Unfortunately, in the case of this type of camouflage pattern, quick and easy wasn't the norm when it was applied at the factory. Stencils were actually made for these patterns, which is evident when looking at photos. If you look carefully enough, you'll notice that the stencil pattern is repeated at regular intervals, especially on Panthers with disc camo. Anyway you look at it, masking, in addition to the use of stencils, will still be part of the process.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 04:34 PM UTC
Alliance Model Works also makes different PE stencils for the Hetzer and Sturmtiger ambush patterns, as well as several different ones for the Panther patterns.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 05:18 PM UTC
One thing I just noticed is that Alliance stencil has a Kampfgruppe Pieper stencil. Anyone have an explanation?
Headhunter506
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Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 06:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

One thing I just noticed is that Alliance stencil has a Kampfgruppe Pieper stencil. Anyone have an explanation?


Just an assumption:

Probably because the stencil was created using photos of Panther G's from KG Peiper as references for that particular pattern.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 - 06:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

One thing I just noticed is that Alliance stencil has a Kampfgruppe Pieper stencil. Anyone have an explanation?


Just an assumption:

Probably because the stencil was created using photos of Panther G's from KG Peiper as references for that particular pattern.


I guess, probably a Kompanie made stencil used in Piepers group to apply the Ambush scheme.

This could be interesting for painting Ambush;

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=3329

EDIT: And I also found this;



It's an early version of the Ambush scheme.
SdAufKla
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

One thing I just noticed is that Alliance stencil has a Kampfgruppe Pieper stencil. Anyone have an explanation?


Just an assumption:

Probably because the stencil was created using photos of Panther G's from KG Peiper as references for that particular pattern.


That's exactly what was done. At the time, I had some long discussions and exchanged quite a bit of information with Brian as he developed these stencils. I know that he examined almost every existent photo of ambush pattern painted AFVs to discern the variations and try to determine their logic and applications.

As it turned out, there were numerous slight variations even within a particular pattern type (eg. with Panthers), so AM-Works developed several sets to replicated many of these these variations. The KG Pieper variation was just one.

Since these were almost all factory applied (there is at least one documented Bergepanzer III with a clearly field applied ambush scheme), my opinion (FWIW) is that the stencils used by the painters were not terribly durable and didn't last long in use. I also assume that they were drawn and cut-out by hand, perhaps by different painters over time.

Also, the patterns are repetitive, but not seamlessly so. Again, in my opinion, this was because the stencils were made in sizes that could be handled by one man while another painted. The first guy then moved the stencil, but only a superficial attempt was made to line up the edges of the subsequent patterns.

Finally, the painting was done by a combination of free-hand spraying and / or brush painting and stencils depending on the vehicle type and factory. (The Panther ambush patterns all appear to me to be free-hand sprayed 3-tone with the stencil "dapples" sprayed on top. Other vehicles might have used different or the same application methods depending.)

Expediency and speed - getting the job done - was more important than perfect application. (We can often see this same result in Zimmerit coatings - variations and sloppy application on different areas of the same vehicle.)

So, if photos are carefully studied, most of the ambush pattern painted AFVs show some variations in the patterns even between vehicles presumably painted at the same factory.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:43 AM UTC
Mike it's odd that there's not documentation on the stencils, not even an obscure photograph. I know the British captured at least one factory where they were producing Panthers, it's very likely they would have run across the stencils. Then again, some details during the war were so easily over-looked while others were scrutinized beyond sensibility.

bill_c
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 03:54 AM UTC
Don't forget the ones by Archer Fine Transfers.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 04:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't forget the ones by Archer Fine Transfers.


Those do NOT look fun to apply....
Headhunter506
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 04:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mike it's odd that there's not documentation on the stencils, not even an obscure photograph. I know the British captured at least one factory where they were producing Panthers, it's very likely they would have run across the stencils. Then again, some details during the war were so easily over-looked while others were scrutinized beyond sensibility.



I forget in which forum (AFV Modeller's KT DG or M-L's Axis DG) I read it, but, there was a discussion about the disc camo and one commenter mentioned that he was in possession of an original cardboard stencil used to apply the pattern. I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.
blaster76
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 09:27 AM UTC
I guess I have always gone with a field rather than factory painted cmmo. So i use a double action airbrush to spray on my brown and green patterns after a base of yellow. Soft edge rather than hard. Then I use a bent large paper clip and dip it in paint then dapple the kit with it. Give irregular dots and if you vary how you dabble you (angle and slight movement)get some slightly different shapes. Be cool though to get some of the patterns on a few stamping like tools
SdAufKla
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Posted: Thursday, January 31, 2013 - 11:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Mike it's odd that there's not documentation on the stencils, not even an obscure photograph. I know the British captured at least one factory where they were producing Panthers, it's very likely they would have run across the stencils. Then again, some details during the war were so easily over-looked while others were scrutinized beyond sensibility.



I forget in which forum (AFV Modeller's KT DG or M-L's Axis DG) I read it, but, there was a discussion about the disc camo and one commenter mentioned that he was in possession of an original cardboard stencil used to apply the pattern. I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment.


I remember the same discussion. IIRC, they wouldn't post a photograph thinking that they would save the "scoop" for some future (un-named) publication. I also seem to recall that the stencil was discovered in a cloths cabinet as a drawer liner. The provenance and story are sketchy at best, but then again, stranger things have happened.

It's not too surprising to me that none of the actual stencils have emerged since:

1) The ambush pattern was only used for a few weeks, a couple of months at most, and...

2) Its use was discontinued about six or seven months before the end of the war, and...

3) It's my belief that the stencils were only made from temporary materials and were essentially disposable.

I seriously doubt that any of the stencils would have survived laying around a factory paint shop until the end of the war.
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