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Armor/AFV: British Armor
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Help with Unit Markings for WW2 Brit Stuart
Sniper738
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Posted: Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 03:42 PM UTC
I have a question about unit markings. I'm finally going to finish a Stuart I started many years ago. It is the old Tamiya 1/35 scale U.S. M3 Stuart with the horseshoe style turret. I'm converting it into a British M3 Stuart Honey of the 5th Royal Tank Regiment,HQ, 4th Armoured Brigade, 7th Div. I started this years before the Academy Stuart kits came out. While I will build an Academy British Stuart with the octagonal turret, I wanted to do a Brit horseshoe one. I'm using a well know vintage photo for reference. The photo shows a Stuart in an over-all light sand color. The single color shows off the Stuart's classic shape and features, which sometimes can get lost in a more complex multi-color scheme. (see below photo)
(The bubble text in the photos has been added by myself.) The scout car in the photo provides some of the info about the Stuart in front of it (an assumetion). This is the Stuart I'm building. The next photo is a close up of the Stuart in the same picture. I've added the information I have researched in the bubbles:
The next photo displays the information I'm looking for. Can anyone help me with what color the 2 flags are and what is the square shaped emblem on the right front fender?
Here is my workbench photos of this project:
(This is my first post using photos, so I hope it come out OK) Thank you in advance for your help. God bless & Semper Fi.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:09 PM UTC

OK, so this is from an old reference, Malcom Bellis' Datafile in British armoured formations 1939-45, produced sometime in the 80's I believe, yet it is still considered accurate.

5 RTR was part of 4 Bde, 7 Armd during May, June & July 1941. At all of these times it was either the second senior or senior regiment in the Bde and only senior when the regiment had been combined with 4 RTR due to losses, so you can assume they didn't change the markings for a period of under a month.

This tells us a couple of things, the first of which is that the regiment colour of the diamond would have been yellow, not blue!

If they did change the turret markings during the combined 4-5 RTR period (June 41) then the colour would be red.

The square on the fender is either the tactical sign or the formation sign. Normally, the tactical sign goes on the left side (looking at the front or back) and the formation sign on the right. The Formation sign is normally the highest unit which the vehicle is considered "under command", usually a division, but no lower than a brigade, in this case 7 Armd. The Tactical sign indicates where the vehicle's regiment is within the higher formation.

In the desert, it appears that the system was not always followed, witness the DIngo from 7 RTR with the tactical sign (& the brigade sign of the black Jerboa) on the right and the formation sign (a red jerboa) on the left.

_IF_ 5 RTR followed the same conventions as the Dingo, then the square is for the _formation_ sign and would be red but lacking the white circle & red jerboa of 7 Armd. On the other side would be the brigade symbol and the number 86 in a red square.

_IF_ they were supposed to be following the nominal orders of the time, the square is a red tactical sign lacking the numbers 86 and the Divisional sign would be on the other (right) fender.

The diamond indicates an HQ sqn vehicle and therefore the pennant should be a square in red. It obviously is two triangels, so it's not following the normal procedure and we are left to conjecture.

The fact that 4 & 5 RTR were amalgamated for a period suggests that whatever tanks remained after the battles of May 1941 were put together in whatever way made sense in the new ad hoc regiment. This vehicle may not have been the regimental commander's any longer, notwithstanding the diamond painted on the turret. The fact that there are two pennants indicates that it is a troop commander's vehicle. The triangles indicate A sqdn & if we can agree that neither pennant is yellow, then it is the vehicle of either the 1 Trp or 3 Trp commander and the lower pennant is either red or blue respectively. I believe the top pennant is black.

The use of orthochromatic and panchromatic film at the time makes identifying red, blue or even yellow very difficult, so it may not be possible to do better than this unless someone knows exactly what the photo represents form another source.

HTH

Paul
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 06:21 PM UTC
All of that said, of course, the following web site, also generally considered authorative, shows a different allocation of 5 RTR and indicates that is was considered the most junior regiment in teh brigade for a while.

http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/BAM/7th%20Armd%20Div%20-%20complete.pdf

So you can see that things are not necessarily nailed down.

Hope this doesn't confuse matters more!

Paul
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 12:43 AM UTC
Hi Daniel,

5RTR served with 4 Armd Bde well beyond Jul '41, right into 1942, during which time they were the junior armd unit.

There's the possibilty that it could be Jul '41 as the Brigade was in Alexandria being reformed and refitted with Stuarts then. Aug to Oct there's some confusion as to the AOS, which could well have been 5E during that time.

Personally though I would suggest that both the Dingo and Stuart are 5RTR and the photo date would be Nov '41 or later, when they were the junior regiment after 8KRIH and 3RTR, possibly during training before Op Crusader. This would account for the AOS being 67 and the blue HQ tac sign.


As for the flags, GHQ orders dated Sep '41 stated that they should be the same colour as the unit AoS background (ie red in this case) and triangular for Tp cmdrs, darted pennants for Sqn cmdrs, rectangular for Regt'l cmdrsand a 1'x3' triangle for Bde cmdrs.

HTH,
Ken
tankmodeler
#417
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Posted: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 09:05 AM UTC
Good intel, Ken. Thanks.

It's always the same problem with older references, some of it gets superceded and some of it is still valid and bugger me if I can tell the difference purely by looking at the words on the paper!

I wish there were updated versions of older stuff.

My wife is always wondering why I keep buying books on WW II armour and, while this sort of updated info is one of the main reasons, it still wouldn't wash as a valid reason with her!

Paul
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 08:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Good intel, Ken. Thanks.

It's always the same problem with older references, some of it gets superceded and some of it is still valid and bugger me if I can tell the difference purely by looking at the words on the paper!

I wish there were updated versions of older stuff.

Paul



Paul, when it comes to the desert formations and Regiments it becomes a quagmire of information and it is near impossible without actual source material such as war diaries and tech states etc to determine who was with who and when particularly in the Pre Alamein battles where adhoc formations were created and battle repairs were re issued to other units etc (This even holds true post Alamein for Grants and Shermans).
I started to read a few books on 5 RTR and 4 AB and even these period titles were confused for the given dates as to who constituted 4AB. Still it is a great excuse to get more reference!

Al
Dutchy3RTR
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Posted: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 - 10:46 PM UTC
Here's one handy ref:
4th Armoured History
Sniper738
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Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 03:20 AM UTC
Paul, Thank you so much for your very informative reply. That took some time on your part! I'm better with a rifle than a keyboard (my typing is 3 words per min). Sorry its taken so long to report back to you. I live on the Connecticut coast and we just got 36" of snow (my Nissan Xtera was buried). You being in Canada would just think that this snow was just another day at the office. I enjoyed looking at the photos of your models. One of the sci fi walkers you built looks like you designed it yourself. Pretty cool! I also noticed your space program models. My father was one of the designers of the Vehicle Assembly Building (VAB)and the Launch Control Center at Cape Kennedy back in the 1960s. Some of the architectural models of these 2 buildings were built in our living room. I have a few unpublished photos of them. If you are interested I can email them to you. Thanks again Dan
Sniper738
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Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 03:58 AM UTC
Ken, Thanks for the info. You, Paul and the others have been great. I have really enjoyed seeing your Stuart models. I'm kind of a Stuart-addict. I'm trying to get back into the hobby. God bless! Dan
P.S. Where does one find photo etched diamond-style grill covers suitable for the M3's?
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 05:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

P.S. Where does one find photo etched diamond-style grill covers suitable for the M3's?


Eduard has a couple sets:

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/M-3A1-Stuart-exterior-1-35.html?cur=2&force_sid=956c04d0190acd151b3409283a99a2e1&listtype=search&searchparam=stuart

http://www.eduard.com/store/Eduard/M-3A1-Stuart-1-35.html?cur=2&force_sid=956c04d0190acd151b3409283a99a2e1&listtype=search&searchparam=stuart

The M3A1 set has more than you need, but the M3 stuff is on there as well.

Paul
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 05:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Paul, Thank you so much for your very informative reply.


No problem, glad to help. No sense having references unless you drag them out and use them, eh? Otherwise the wife will want them in a dumpster.


Quoted Text

You being in Canada would just think that this snow was just another day at the office.



No, the foot we got here last week pretty much shut us down. It was the most snow we'd gotten at one time in Toronto in 4 years.


Quoted Text

One of the sci fi walkers you built looks like you designed it yourself.


Actually, both of them are unique kitbashes. The two-legged one is just a bit smaller than the 4-legged one.


Quoted Text

My father was one of the designers of the Vehicle Assembly Building (VAB)and the Launch Control Center at Cape Kennedy back in the 1960s. Some of the architectural models of these 2 buildings were built in our living room. I have a few unpublished photos of them. If you are interested I can email them to you.


That would be really cool, I'll PM you with my email address. Thanks a lot!

Paul
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