Hi all.

I'm only 2 weeks into my current project but I'm starting to plan my next (partly because I've realised parts can take up to a month to arrive.)

I'm planning a Late Panzer IV with PE turret armour and side skirts. Current favouite is a tri-tonal camo. I've used side skirts before and painted the skirts separately and hung them later. This doesn't cause a problem as they are easily removed being a loose fit on hangers. But I'm intrigued by the turret armour. This appears to be a more permanent fix? Do you guys paint the turret and turret armour seperately, then glue the armour in place? I can't see how you could make a decent job of airbrushing the turret with the armour in place. Any tips would be appreciated

Many thanks for your time

Andy

Lol. I guess that was a trickier question than I thought!

By way of explanation, all the build logs I've seen show painting after the turret armour is on. I find it hard to believe the camo on the turret was airbrushed with the armour in place. Having said that the build logs showed the wheels and tracks attached prior to painting, now I'm only a novice with an airbrush, but surely that can't be done? Have I answered my own question? But then why show it like that and call it a build log?

Thanks again

Darned GREAT question you have raised, Andy!

And I don't think the answer is either as easy nor clear nor readily-verified as some may wish!

The "real-thing" aspect:

Turret Schurzen on Pz IV were a factory installation... and, unlike those plates hung on the hull-sides, not readily taken off. They were "permanently-mounted".

So... IF almost all Pz. IV were factory painted in base-coats only, and most with turret schurzen (later G, H, J) were built and issued wearing "dunkelgelb" as their base color, then... one should expect that the crew in the field received their new panzer in that all-dunkelgelb coat. The crew was usually the final camo artist and applied the issued rotbraun and green camo. So... does it seem likely that the crew would bother trying to carefully extend any turret camo-scheme down the turret-sides behind those schurzen? They were certainly unlikely to remove those schurzen and rack to do this.

I would suggest NO. I would bet that turret camo patterns were mostly limited to on the top, front-face and gun, cupola, and maybe vaguely extending part way down the turret-sides behind schurzen - the part easily reached by the painter. Almost completely unlikely was any camo to be applied on the inside surfaces of those turret schurzen.

Numbers, as we know, were painted onto the schurzen (which actually goes with my supposition here about camo not being on turret-sides).

There are lots of pictures of Pz IV with turret schurzen and with camo patterns. Almost all taken from the ground and very very few providing any clear look at what is behind those schurzen. A good number of pics show those side schurzen doors open, and those almost always look to be straight solid dunkelgelb. It is clear that the cupola and turret-face get camo'd. But not much solid data on the camo - or lack of - on turret-sides behind schurtzen.

So... You have to make a decision about that - camo on turret-sides? How much? The inside of the schurtzen should IMHO probably "always" be dunkelgelb - even for white wash; probably all but the most thorough white-over job likely skipped that inside.

That said: It IS your choice- I am absolutely sure that there were SOME Pz IV that were fully - painted behind their skirts - and even a few which had the inner-faces of those shurtzen camo'd. "NEVER" and "ALWAYS" share a property: neither is actually true everywhere or everytime! Specially when it comes to German WWII paint-schemes and applications!

Looking over many posted build-pics, it looks like most modelers have actually elected to put complete camo on the turret-sides, as if that schurtzen was simply hung on, like its hull-counter-parts. IMHO, this looks very cool, but seems mighty unlikely to be accurate, as a typical practice. However, given as we have trained ourselves and model-show judges to expect this approach, I don't see most suddenly doing something different. We, and our hobby, are creatures of habit! But I WILL take the shot when I do one a these!

As for your technique: I would suggest to paint the turret separate from its schurtzen, assemble the stuff, and detail-in the joins and appropriate weathering. That would be easier, I think, than painting around inside the schurtzen once on.

Bob

Thanks Bob, it wasn't an interesting question (it was a typical newbie question) but you've made it interesting

Thanks buddy

A few years ago I built my only DML Panzer IV late version for another forum group build. At that time I was still into aircraft, and just coming over to the armor side of modeling and to Armorama. I painted the camo pattern on the turret with the armor glued up. It's really not very hard, and dealing with any over spray was taken care of by the use of pieces of index cards. Behind the armor panels I just applied the base color with no camo as it would serve no real purpose.
Joel

Hi Andy,

I have examined several photos of PzIV J's and found this one that you can see the turret is still Dunkelgelb while the schurzen on the turret is tri-colour. Hope this is of some help in you deciding what to do.



All the best,

Paul

Paul;

514 is one of the many pictures I looked pretty closely at as I jumped around with this turret-schurtzen paint question - gotta say, one of the most-interesting and cool pics of the bunch.

For us modelers, there is a wealth of interesting stuff to learn here concerning later-war Panzer IV...

The "balkan-Kreuz" on the turret schurtzen - note how nicely it is sort of faded and blended-in. I would bet that this came about during the crew camo-painting, where it looks a lot like the added colors were vaguely and widely applied - including partially-obscuring the national markings. A neat tip for some turret-painting.

The "514" looks to be a little more distinct, but still not "glaring". Seems consistent with other pics which suggest that those Germans actually wanted the numbers visible - and as those numbers are for the use and benefit of other Germans while in action - this clarity makes some sense. So maybe crew were guided to NOT obscure numbers... The Germans would not generally need to see a Balkan-Kreuz on a Pz. IV to assume that it was one of theirs, so allowing those to be more subtle fits. For logic, anyway

The shell casings are indeed nice - seemingly pretty bright brass. And at least the empty up on the deck looks to have an annealed neck - a clue for us who want to place a couple empty brassies in our builds and dios.

For hatch-freaks, yes - all the opened turret and turret schurtzen hatches look to have been painted exterior dunkelgelb - the leather head-pad on the cupola hatch being dark brown or black. I would also note that the turret-side-hatch opening shows a) what appears to be the expected light-colored inside, and b) the subtle detail that the inside lip of that opening was also dunkelgelb. Pretty cool!

The gun-barrel / muzzle-brake is also informative. The empty casings argue that this guy had fired his main gun at least once or twice since it was painted, but no blackening is evident on that brake...

And, probably of most-import to me as I think of doing my next late-war Pz IV, this combat vet shows very little evident chipping nor rust-streaking of any kind, although the hung spare track links show varied rust, so this is NOT a fresh paint-job.

A mondo-informative picture, IMHO! Thanks for posting it here.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Interesting and informative commentary and, possibly like you, I find this current vogue for vehicles that look like they spent a year on a construction site not at all convincing. Not to take away from the person's skill in simulating all this stuff, but I for one haven't seen much evidence of it. With regard to the 'clean' muzzle brake, I believe the Germans used smokeless ammunition so there would be little in the way of deposits on the end of the gun and I have studied hundreds of photographs of German tanks and found no evidence for this.

All the best,

Paul