Hello, I am new to the game really. I have an idea for a diorama based on the battle for Raseiniai in Lithuania in 1941. However, being inexperienced at dio building I don't know if the dio would be as interesting as the actual story behind it.

The history behind it is a single Soviet KV1 parked in the middle of a road between an advanced unit of the 6th Panzer Division and the main body of the Division. This tank blocked all supplies and medical care, destroying anything that attempted to break through. The KV1 was, according to the memoir, 'annoying'.

The Germans brought up multiple PAK38 AT guns that did nothing and got knocked out by the tank promptly. The Germans then snuck an 88 up but the KV1 waited until it was close enough and destroyed it. Finally Pioneers snuck right up to the tank at night and placed explosives that did nothing to destroy the tank and caused only minimal damage.

It is a great story as told from the German commander, but would it make a feasible dio? How big would it be to capture the entire assault on the single tank? It seems it would have to be a large base to cover the KV1, two destroyed PAK38s, a destroyed 88, pioneers, casualties, and the command team observing from a hill. Or would it be better to not include all elements? How would you approach this, if at all?

Sorry for the long post but I don't have experience and would appreciate any thoughts the community might have.

Jon

IMHO- the problem with this idea is, like most situations, the range of modern (& ww2) weapons complicates proper distancing in any diorama.
88mm or 20mm AA weapons are not going to be parked next to the target but would have been located down the street.
And the 76.2mm in the KV would have had that much reach as well.
So how are you going to proceed:
Very small scale allowing the inclusion of more elements
Forced prospective: 1/35 for the main subject and a smaller scale for the background?
Or just focus on one of the units?
Perhaps the KV on the street after finally getting knocked out: what kind of damage did the KV take from the weapons thrown at it? Any photos available of this specific incident?
IMHO

Even to try in 1/72 scale it would be a huge diorama . A 3 ft base would only be about 75 yrds in scale , and a Pak 38 had a range of over 2700 yrds ( 450 inches in scale ), even if you halfed the range, still a huge base in scale .
I'ld build the KV blocking road in 1/35 , with all the shell hits and other assorted damage . Maybe a passing German half track or truck with troops pointing out the hits . I take it the KV was finally knocked out , so maybe a dead crew man or two .
Might work out if you tried it in 1/144 scale , doesn't Dragon make dicast tanks and guns that size ? Figures could be a problem though.

I would recommend doing it in 1/72. This will greatly reduce the size of the diorama. Generally speaking, 1/72 makes a better diorama(say +3 vehicles). And 1/35 is good for vignettes of two vehicles. Any larger and the diorama would need a permanent home.

I like the idea as it would be an interesting story behind your model. I would show the KV-1 with damage from shell hits and perhaps have a destroyed German softskin on the base near the KV-1 with the German infantry creeping up in their attempt to destroy it, or you could simply have your KV-1 with its damage and shell hits around it. Whatever you decide print out a card to display with the model and everyone will know then what it represents.

I have not found photos of the specific event, but there is description from the Germans of what happened when they finally knocked it out. I was thinking of picking up the scene when the pioneers were setting charges. I do know the PAKs were not far from the tank (300 meters or so in the wood line) and the 88 was 600 meters away taking cover behind burned out vehicles (earlier victims of the KV1).

It took, I believe, 3 88's and a bunch of 38t's scooting around in the trees to finally bring the KV1 to it's knees.

The shots from the PAKs did not even leave discernable marks on the tank, the demo charges only managed to damage a small portion of the track and they even got a charge on the barrel of the KV1 that only put a small dent in. The infantry could not get close because of the machine gun.

It's a cool story but difficult to replicate.

This is going to be a huge diorama, at 300-600 meters. 42', in 1/35. 20.5' in 1/72.

Yeah, I'm realizing that it is not going to be feasible to do the entire scene. I think I'll have to rethink. Thanks for the input!

you couls always do 2 seperate dios, one showing the tank, the other showing the guns.

You'd better check. I believe it was a KV-2

The memoirs says it was a KV1 but memoirs tend to mis-remember facts.

Wasn't it the KV 2 that was featured in the old ( 1970s ) Squadron Russian Tank book ? Had 4 or five photos of it , one with some 40s era German cover girl on the turret. Thats one of the books I still regreat getting rid of

I have to admit that this is sounding like a KV-2

Hi,

At Osprey Vanguard #24 - Soviet Heavy Tanks there is a photo of that episode - a KV-2 being inspected by german troops; the photo shows the track damaged by the demolitions charges.

Perhaps that photo gives you an idea for the diorama you wnt to do.

HTH

Oh nice! Yes, this goes to show you that everything must be taken with a grain of salt. The German commander says KV1 but pictures speak louder than words. Thanks for the reference!

Jon

Hi,

Here you have another photo of it - http://www.wio.ru/tank/ww2tank.htm

Jon, all have said, the dimensions of your original idea would be rather difficult to manage in either 1/35 or 1/72 scale. More importantly though, I think the idea itself would be difficult for the diorama viewer to grasp, even if you could manage the scale, since what makes the story compelling is the passage of time...multiple attempts were made to dislodge the KV over 2 days, all of which failed (except the last one!). This is not easily conveyed by simply littering the battlefield with destroyed guns and vehicles since there is nothing to indicate that these weren't destroyed in an earlier battle.

However, looking at the photo of this vehicle at the link José posted tells a pretty good story on it's own. The dead crewman and the condition of the KV would make a very good project indeed. Expand it a little to include the road (or crossroads, not sure) and maybe a couple of German officers looking it over, one scratching his head, the other looking and pointing down the road in the same direction as the gun. This might be enough to indicate that the tank was a formidable opponent to the advancing German forces without having to tell the whole story.

After seeing this image and reading the story for myself, I can see how you would be excited for such a project! I just think you can scale it way back and still have an interesting model to display.

Hope this is helpful and good luck with your project.

Jon -

I think it is clear that what attracts you to this story is the heroism, commitment (known sacrifice), and as was already mentioned, their ability to hold off a far superior force for a long period.

Others have commented on the difficulty of modeling this as a physical scene. I suggest you need to think about why you want to model it, and if you can actually interpret that by any physical representation.

I agree with the Prof that it will be difficult to suggest the time aspect, as 4D modeling is still some "time" away. However, I don't agree with the solution he and someone else suggested - showing the tank when it is dead. To me, that would be surrendering all the power of the incident, which is how long they were able to fend off the Germans. A German officer respecting their "fight" after they are dead isn't much satisfaction in my view, and I'm not sure how it would play as a dio.

If you really still want to model this, I think one of Corsair's ideas was the best (only viable?) approach: "Forced prospective: 1/35 for the main subject and a smaller scale for the background?" A lot of it depends on whether you are willing to try an unusual design, build, and presentation such as I'm proposing.

I thought about the large scale tank in the foreground, but had a hard time determining what the "viewpoint" of the scene would be. I then realized it had to be from inside the tank, which is the only way to portray the "one vs. many" concept convincingly. This would be unlike anything else on the site, but is actually the "traditional" definition-implementation of a diorama.

Here's an image of a page from a book purportedly showing the KV-2 turret interior. The gunner's porthole is slightly below center and to the left of the barrel. No doubt there was some other aiming device, and there seems to be extensive literature on this tank, even if little is known/printed on the interior. I believe the commander's position was just to the right of the barrel.





I found two discussions on the interior, but little info. However, each site has a cross-section from the side and top, although it's not clear to me just where the axis is that was used ("the A-A indicators"). The third link brings you to the book the above page is from, with purchase info.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1246037876/KV-2+turret+interior

http://208.84.116.223/forums/index.php?showtopic=34975

http://www.collectrussia.com/DISPITEM.HTM?ITEM=26690 – Russian book with photos

I might suggest going even larger than 1:35 for part of it. Let's discuss the Germans first. It's not clear how close the marshes are to the road (maybe try for a satellite view?), but for this to work I think you need to "fan out" the destroyed German vehicles and guns over a 45-60 degree arc. Some of the vehicles (wheeled) would need to be close to the road (maybe rolled over - some "smoking"), while the guns could be in woods on the side of the road further back.





My drawing is inadequate for even my own simple needs, but I've tried to give you an idea of what I'm suggesting. This would be enclosed - a deep shadow box if you will, with a need for dedicated internal lighting. I'm certain that a search will provide many sites on the net with discussion and instruction in forced perspective.

I'd suggest starting with a small cardboard mock-up and try placing 1:72 and 1:144 vehicles at different distances from the viewing window to get a sense of how you want to design it. Or, you might decide this isn't going to work out for you.

Otherwise, once you determine how you want to use scales, you can start laying out the scene to provide an interesting view from every perspective. BTW - this can be as large or small as you want. You could even use an old periscope. The nearest part of the barrel should really seem massive in any case, but the rate of "shrinkage" of it needs to correspond with the mid- and background. This will take a lot of trials and modification if you decide to go for it.

There was some recent discussion of Forced Perspective in another thread. I might suggest watching the video, reading the English article and looking at the "Dutch" photos, and then view the video again.

Good luck,
Charles


Claude (à Clarvaux) had mentioned a very small Dutch model railroad scene that used forced perspective, and provided a couple of links at my request.

http://tinyurl.com/cy9h3sy - text from an article in the British “Continental Modeller” magazine.

http://members.tele2.nl/peterdillen/perspectief.htm - an article in Dutch with good photos and many (dizzying) diagrams showing how they designed it. You should be able to find a simpler explanation on the net – in English!

http://tinyurl.com/d99h3e6 - Dutch site; the second slideshow at the bottom shows how they "stacked" the shallow relief buildings. You might be able to do this with cardboard mock-ups of vehicles toward the back of the dio.

With info from the above, I tracked down a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0AR-3fdq0k – A video of it begins at 1:10 – I recommend full screen mode.