For an upcoming diorama (German/Ardennes) I have a question. If there was a very large group of armor and soldiers moving through the forest and the route had a fairly large ravine with a creek would they have just kept going thru it untill it was so wrecked they would move downstream a little or would they throw logs into it for a bridge and if so what about the water behind (this of course after recon could not find an easier route)

I think it would depend on their deadline. In other words, the operation would define whether or not they had the time to build "bridges".

An uninformed opinion: it would largely depend on -

1. width
2. steepness of banks, and soil composition
3. depth, amount and speed of water
4. fording depth of vehicles planning to cross - related to the above

If any of these were a possible problem, I should think they would call the engineers up - at least for a consult.

I think any any armoured force would be pretty wary of crossing any water obstacle in winter without bridging material.
A panther weighs 49.4 short tons, a Tiger 62.7 short tons and a Tiger II 75.5 short tons. Any one of those would churn up any watercourse with a less than rock solid bed.

Armored units generally didn't like to cross an obstacle like that because of the weight of the vehicles and the unknown nature of the banks of the creek you mention. I am sure you have seen plenty of pics of tanks stuck in deep mud? This was a head ache and tied up not only that tank but the assets that were needed to recover it. If the stuck tank was exposed to enemy fire then additional forces were needed to guard the thing while it was recovered.
If the unit was up to strength the Panzer Regt had a armoured terrain recon platoon attached to Regt Hq and these were supposed to be the guys that went and checked the route out.
If you only mean the Ardennes then the tanks almost always kept to the roads as the ground was way too moist in the winter to take a chance and leave the hard surfaces.
J

Thats kind of my question, considering the force was large enough to make a mess and they could initially drive through it, does anyone know if they would place logs into it without actually "building a bridge"
This diorama will depict basically blazing a road for forces through the woods with alot of drivin over and blown up trees.

Sounds like a diorama that is making compromises for dramatic effect or cost of material or your abilities. The evidence above is pretty clear - they didn't do what you suggest. I would not begin that Ardennes dio withOut very good photo reference or you will spend forever explaining to people who know better why such a thing is plausible yet extremely unlikely. I'm not German armour fan but as I understand it ardennes campaign was in last years of the war and the Germans were pretty clever and wouldn't of risked such a manouver over water with such scarce and valuable assets, your diorama would need to explain by design why that risk was taken .

Adam

Hi John,

Certainly during the Ardennes campaign the Germans had done a lot of forward Recce, they were very aware of all terrain that they would pass through. The majority of armour moved over known tracks inclusing forestry tracks to avoaid just such obstacles. As a former Engineer route recce is king and no armour moves forward on unknown roads. Tanks appear strong but terrain is king and poor roads can stop armour dead.

The major crossings were carried out by the German engineers using bridging equipment. Initial recce would have been by wheeled vehicles so your scenario would ideally be a collapsed culvert or bridge with a temporary fix if cut down trees but it would built well. No tank unit would want to lose a vehicle on a crossing.

The German commanders dd complain about moving armour forward on the forestry tracks and the narrow roads.

Regards

Brian

Thanks for the info, I know they wouldn't go through a major obsticle, I was just curious if it is something they did on any occasion. Quick overview, I've built a bunch of dioramas over the years and (my roots stem from model railroading) last year I built a new home office and built into one wall a museum type base for a large wall diorama (10'x2')with its own lighting for eventually building a large diorama that I can put all my builds in, that time is now, with that said it will be freelanced to accomodate everything and year spans,it is going to also span 3 seasons, starting summer on the right and eventually blending into winter with different scenes as it goes. I like accuracy and like to have fun, but I don't want to put something in there that just wouldn't have happened.

> large wall diorama (10'x2')with its own lighting

John - it sounds ideal for a shelf switching layout, unless you've given all that up ;-)

Wouldn't that be a better break from working than just looking at static stuff - no matter how well done.

I'll send a PM with a trackplan of that size.

Charles

Because of the nature of the geography of the Ardennes region most if not all rivers and streams ran through steeply sided ravines ('V' shaped). Peiper's recce and advance forces, even though on a tight schedule, when confronted by a water barrier or destroyed bridges, were forced to change direction until a suitable crossing or intact bridge could be found. Sometimes a very small US defense force (as at Trois Ponts) could prevent or delay German attempts at a forced crossing.

As an addition, again referring to Peiper's column, he placed low emphasis on his bridging equipment and had his armour up front. When he needed his bridging equipment it was miles behind, usually never to catch up.

Correct! There was bridging equipment sort of close to the front of the column but it was only the small sections mounted on the engineer halftracks.
The only true bridging unit would have been with the Pioneer Hq of LSSAH or 1SS Pz Korps and they were way back there and never did get close. A heavy rated bridge over the Ambleve would have ensured the resupply of Panzergroup Peiper and the opportunity for the rest of his tanks to join him in Le Gleize. Luckily for us it didn't happen but his defeat was a forgone conclusion anyway.
J

Since it is going to be freelanced with the heavy pine forest theme, I am going to mix the two. I am going to make it shallow and a little rocky and about 20' wide. (and damn it, they are driving thru it!) I have another website that I am going to launch that will cover this complete build and video also when possible, it will also cover scenery in general as well as tree making (video)
Hopefully next week, I'll keep you informed
At the end of the dio. I'll have all peipers tanks sitting around a gas station - just kidding

Something about tracked tactics: one does not send tracked armour ' just' forward. Even swift lightly armoured (half)tracked vehicles would carefully study the map and keep a way backwards open. Now to the specific situation: a german panzer commander would be very well aware about the fact that he owns scares combat means, thus carefully guiding them through the forests (which is likely due to the danger of Alied air supremacy). Therefore, he would certainly send light vehicles forward to reconaince routes. If he needs to cross water, due to the fact that the steep and tree covered terrain does not allow him much off-the-road actions, this would more or less automatically lead to a bridge. In case of a destruction Pioniere (engineers) would build a solution. The time this requires is relatively long thus forcing the panzer commander to spread his tanks over a long way and or area to avoid a duck shooting party for US and other Alied flying tank hunters!

It would be best to choose and research a particular scenario and panzer div. for authenticity. There is plenty of info and pics scattered throughout the web (a modeler's best friend!).

I guess I'll check both sides of the isle just in case, does anyone have a pic of what a bridge in this situation would look like?

Just take some names of villages in The Ardennes and go to Google pictures!
Heaps of tourists have put photos on the web. Eg of some names to look for: Houfalize, Bastogne, Malmedy
Just remember that in those days German panzer troops mainly krept forwards during the night. The Ardennes forests are absolutely no tank area. Panzer troops used the Ardennes routes to reach undiscovered the open fields in the north, where tank battles could be succesfull, or to reach Die Heimat.
Extensive use of foliage and the shadows of trees became a second nature!
Try to speak with a tanker: he will tell you that these canned soldiers get very nervous in ravine areas and forests. Every tree could hide a single tank killer.........

I certainly understand your modelling intentions. Therefore, make a decision between historical / miltary tactics accuray or the fun to build a situation you ' invented' . At the end of the day, it is your own project, nobody punishes you if you do what you like!

There have been several books published with a good series of pics covering the German engineers bridge over the railroad cut at Losheim. This was the cut that had a blown bridge that held up the Infantry Div that was supposed to make the breakthrough of the American lines so the LSSAH could pass through. Peiper became impatient and had his armor pass up the Inf Div and then just drive through the cut further down the ditch. This put him in a good mood when he then talked to the Col in charge of the Para Regt that was held up by the Americans later that night(turned out the large american force was a ghost).
The bridge was a smaller all metal temp bridge something like a Bailey.
If you mean the regular civilian bridges,as suggested use google earth. I believe the bridge over the Ambleve below Cheneux is still the same one from 1944? Or the one in Stavelot?
J

Hi John,

Paul is right about tank tactics, but then again, the whole area is NOT suited for armoured warfare. Progress is slow, and more so in wintertime, ambushes along the single roads at the bottom of the narrow valleys are easy to set up, bridges are ideal to stop everything once they are blown up, ... and still the germans decided to go that way (against all arguments and regs).

the bridges haven't changed that much. Take Claude's Clervaux f.ex.
He has a bridge for you.
Bridges in the Ardennes are all stone built! No wooden constructions here.
Google earth and maps of the action will give you all the names of the villages....and you will have no problems to find lots of photos.

Cheers

Romain