Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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IDF Super Shermans
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, May 31, 2002 - 07:23 PM UTC
Does anyone make a kit for one of these? You know, the ones they used in the 6 day way. Or detail parts? Or atleast information on how to do a conversion? Any help would be appreciated.
ArmouredSprue
Joined: January 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,958 posts
Armorama: 1,003 posts
Posted: Friday, May 31, 2002 - 10:24 PM UTC
Hi Sir;
I got the DML Dragon kit that is very accurate and I think it still can be found.
I'm not sure, but it's a guess that the Academy also does a kit of this model.
HTH
Cheers!
I got the DML Dragon kit that is very accurate and I think it still can be found.
I'm not sure, but it's a guess that the Academy also does a kit of this model.
HTH
Cheers!
Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Friday, May 31, 2002 - 11:04 PM UTC
Thanks for your help. 
m1garand
Joined: February 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,248 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:12 AM UTC
Folgore
Joined: May 31, 2002
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:31 AM UTC
I think in his book, How to Build Dioramas, Shep Paine modifies a WWII Sherman to make a Super Sherman.
kf8xo
Joined: February 19, 2002
KitMaker: 114 posts
Armorama: 107 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 01:09 AM UTC
The Shep Paine book you are refering to is "Modeling TANKS and MILITARY VEHICLES" by Kalmbach Books. ISBN 0-89024-045-0. Excellent step by step kitbashing an Italeri M4A1 and Tamiya M4A3E8 into an M51.
CaptainJack
Joined: March 17, 2002
KitMaker: 793 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 02:38 AM UTC
The academy kit is by far and large the best model available. It can be built straight OOB, or detailed for a competition level item. See work bench gallery. I posted a c. 1973 series batch 3 model I'm working on there. The Dragon kit is acceptable but falls far short. I would emphasize the need for the Accurate Armour update set to complete an accurate model. This is a must if you want a nice kit. I also splashed out and used A/A parts on both kits. The conversion is reasonably priced and greatly enhances the models.
Jack
#:-) 
:-) 
Jack
#:-) :-) Weezul
Joined: May 24, 2002
KitMaker: 151 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 03:48 AM UTC
Thanks a lot guys, this will be a lot of help.
shiryon
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 876 posts
Armorama: 606 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:44 PM UTC
The only Israeli tank Given the title super sherman were those equiped with the later 76mm w/muzzle break. This was to denote the more powerfull weapon than the older 75mm. The designation given these vehicles were M1. If you want to build this vehicle you'll need to kit bash a bit. First youl need a M4a1 late and some hvvs suspension. Next find a t23 turret without dust shroud on the mantlet. Add frech style smoke launchers and a .50 cal centered and just foward on the turret. Depending on tank add 1 searchlight over main gun. These tanks in this configuration fought mostly in the Jerusalem front. Just a reminder m50/51 tanks still had their exaust coming out the rear next to the engine hatch in 67. so if you are going to use the DML kits to make either a m50/51 checkout Tom Gannons book or the article in Mmir Issue #16(?).
Posted: Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 12:53 PM UTC
the Sherman became the master on the battlefield when the IDF got ahold on them.
m60a3
Joined: March 08, 2002
KitMaker: 778 posts
Armorama: 396 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
the Sherman became the master on the battlefield when the IDF got ahold on them.
It wasn't just the tanks, but the soldiers manning them. The Israeli troops employed their weapons and tactics much more efficiently than the Syrian, Egyptian, Jordanian and allied forces.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Nick, I just traded for the DML M51 Isherman (#3529). It is a nice kit, although I can't compare it to the Academy one since I never examined that kit. The DML M51 kit has the benefit that it also comes with the complete turret sprue for the M50. So if you get this kit, you can mate the M50 turret to the appropriate M4 hull and get 2 IDF Shermans from one kit. Does anyone make a kit for one of these? You know, the ones they used in the 6 day way. Or detail parts? Or atleast information on how to do a conversion? Any help would be appreciated.
MP Models used to do an M-50 Super Sherman too. These were some of the first injection molded "exotic" Shermans to hit the market. They are not the best, but the conversions and complete kits that MP put out were well received since the only kits available were the Italeri M4A1 and the Tamiya old M4A3. Verlinden also did a turret for a Super Sherman many years ago.
BTW the M51 cost me only an AMT Tigercat and P-40N and I got a set of Waffen SS tank crew figures. Check out the various online "flea markets" and swap boards. Some kit you have collecting dust will be greatly desired by someone looking to get rid of a superb armor kit.
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 11:57 PM UTC
I have the Academy kit and have seen the DML one. Right OOB I prefer the Academy. It appears to me that the HVSS units will be more securely attached to the hull than the DML. And I don't mind vinyl band tracks. There are a few quibbles: The jerrycan racks on the fenders are molded with the cans in two pieces, so there are seams to clean up and if you wish to model the racks empty you must scavenge or scratchbuild. Also, the canvas mantlet cover is rendered in plastic as part of the mantlet/barrel assembly. As for accuracy, it LOOKS fine. But I haven't ordered that new book on the Israeli Shermans yet and I know that there are noticeable differences in vehicles built in different batches at different times. But I do so love that huge 105mm gun.... :-)
Greg
Greg
RufusLeeking
Joined: January 18, 2002
KitMaker: 330 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 04:21 AM UTC
See what you guys made me do, after reading this post saturday night. I went over to Great Models site and bought the Academy kit. Hate when that happens.
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:09 AM UTC
Oh, cry me a river Ron! Gosh golly that kind of impulse purchase NEVER happens to me!
And if you believe that, there's this bridge for sale....
But really, I think you'll be happy with it. I have to refrain from tearing into it, as I need to budget for a few more books on the subject before starting mine. Which batch to model, which war, which front; all undecided. And I probably won't leave well enough alone, going after resin bits to add and figures to make htat I can't paint all that well and...and...and...
Greg
Gosh golly that kind of impulse purchase NEVER happens to me! And if you believe that, there's this bridge for sale....
But really, I think you'll be happy with it. I have to refrain from tearing into it, as I need to budget for a few more books on the subject before starting mine. Which batch to model, which war, which front; all undecided. And I probably won't leave well enough alone, going after resin bits to add and figures to make htat I can't paint all that well and...and...and...
Greg
shiryon
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 876 posts
Armorama: 606 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:13 AM UTC
Just one more thing I forgot to mention. If you buy the DML M51 Kit you can still make a full 5M50 right out of the box. The m50 was mounted on M4a4, M4a1(late) and 47 deg hulls as well. If your interested in the 67 period the markings that came with the kit including the air Identification stripe were for a vehicle fighting against syria . The photo of the vehicle is common an readily available. THe M50 mounted on the M4a1 that was seen in Jerusalem had no Ident stripe. M51s were also mounted on a number of variants as well. IF you want more info send me a private message and I'll se what I can find for you.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The only Israeli tank Given the title super sherman were those equiped with the later 76mm w/muzzle break. This was to denote the more powerfull weapon than the older 75mm. The designation given these vehicles were M1. If you want to build this vehicle you'll need to kit bash a bit. First youl need a M4a1 late and some hvvs suspension. Next find a t23 turret without dust shroud on the mantlet. Add frech style smoke launchers and a .50 cal centered and just foward on the turret. Depending on tank add 1 searchlight over main gun. These tanks in this configuration fought mostly in the Jerusalem front. Just a reminder m50/51 tanks still had their exaust coming out the rear next to the engine hatch in 67. so if you are going to use the DML kits to make either a m50/51 checkout Tom Gannons book or the article in Mmir Issue #16(?).
I picked up the Academy M51 about 3 months ago over at Colpar and have it sitting on the 'to-do' shelf. I've been trying to get myself fired up to build a Sherman for awhile now. I know how much most of the members here like the Sherman ( I'm the exception). I guess I should have never read Belton's book regarding the Sherman tank and it's shortcomings. But having the IDF do a variant might make me 'jump the fence'
And I am very grateful for your input (above) on the variations shiryon. You jammed quite a bit of info into a relatively short paragraph. Thanks, I'm sure most of the Clan will appreciate it.
Tread.
Greg
Joined: April 12, 2002
KitMaker: 455 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 05:31 AM UTC
Yeah, thanks, Shiryon; I'll keep that in mind as I plan the project. Don't know how you or anyone else does it, but I tend to grab lots of printed reference material, devour it all, and mull it over for a while before deciding exactly what to model. Being Israeli, you no doubt have access to photos and other material not easily obtainable on the West Coast of the USA. Once I have enough information to post intelligent questions, I'll start a fresh thread and ask specifically for your help as the local expert on the spot. Internet sure is nice, isn't it? A decade ago this kind of converstion would have been a pipe dream...
Greg
Greg
shiryon
Joined: April 26, 2002
KitMaker: 876 posts
Armorama: 606 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 07:26 AM UTC
Actually I'm on the East coast now in NY. I've collected references on Idf stuff for years. Got a closet of kits waiting to be modified to IDF. If you need somthing Just post I'll try to answer. I've got a fairly good Hebrew language reference as well. I try to add to my web site as time and ability allows(I'm quite illiterate with desining web pages).
www.homestead.com/shiryon/index.html #:-)
www.homestead.com/shiryon/index.html #:-)
RufusLeeking
Joined: January 18, 2002
KitMaker: 330 posts
Armorama: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, June 03, 2002 - 07:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe only Israeli tank Given the title super sherman were those equiped with the later 76mm w/muzzle break. This was to denote the more powerfull weapon than the older 75mm. The designation given these vehicles were M1. If you want to build this vehicle you'll need to kit bash a bit. First youl need a M4a1 late and some hvvs suspension. Next find a t23 turret without dust shroud on the mantlet. Add frech style smoke launchers and a .50 cal centered and just foward on the turret. Depending on tank add 1 searchlight over main gun. These tanks in this configuration fought mostly in the Jerusalem front. Just a reminder m50/51 tanks still had their exaust coming out the rear next to the engine hatch in 67. so if you are going to use the DML kits to make either a m50/51 checkout Tom Gannons book or the article in Mmir Issue #16(?).
I picked up the Academy M51 about 3 months ago over at Colpar and have it sitting on the 'to-do' shelf. I've been trying to get myself fired up to build a Sherman for awhile now. I know how much most of the members here like the Sherman ( I'm the exception). I guess I should have never read Belton's book regarding the Sherman tank and it's shortcomings. But having the IDF do a variant might make me 'jump the fence'
And I am very grateful for your input (above) on the variations shiryon. You jammed quite a bit of info into a relatively short paragraph. Thanks, I'm sure most of the Clan will appreciate it.
Tread.
Tread, I thought you liked Shermans like most folks here. Didn't you pickup Italeri's new M4 Sherman with the fording trunks? I was going to ask you what you thought of the kit, had my eye on it myself.
cfbush2000
Joined: December 01, 2001
KitMaker: 1,796 posts
Armorama: 1,207 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 06:26 AM UTC
I just called jon at Mission Models and ordered the Academy M51 kit. He has about a dozen of the kits on hand if anyone else wants one. His price after the discount is $25.60.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:17 AM UTC
Howdy Ron,
I do like the Sherman, just not 'over the top' like some. My statement was meant to convey that I am trying to increase my affection for the Sherm'...that is all. Maybe there's too much of the Draftsman/Engineer in me, but some of the design parameters for the Sherman, considering it was developed by supposedly the greatest industrialized nation in the world are a little.....confusing.
Anyway, the new Italeri PTO Sherman is quite nice. Aside from the fact that it's still made from that infamous Italeri 'soft' styrene. (wish they'd use the same formula as Tamiya).
The turret has a decent amount of texture to it, the mouldings are for the most part pretty clean,
it does have the rubber band tracks, and the hull has some pretty unneccessary 'ghost' markings where the pioneer set is supposed to go. I don't doubt tho that it will build into a decent model...that is, with a little help from the AM.
Tread.
Although...the one item I really do like about the Shermans is the road wheel build up...much easier than any german AFV road wheel set!
I do like the Sherman, just not 'over the top' like some. My statement was meant to convey that I am trying to increase my affection for the Sherm'...that is all. Maybe there's too much of the Draftsman/Engineer in me, but some of the design parameters for the Sherman, considering it was developed by supposedly the greatest industrialized nation in the world are a little.....confusing.
Anyway, the new Italeri PTO Sherman is quite nice. Aside from the fact that it's still made from that infamous Italeri 'soft' styrene. (wish they'd use the same formula as Tamiya).
The turret has a decent amount of texture to it, the mouldings are for the most part pretty clean,
it does have the rubber band tracks, and the hull has some pretty unneccessary 'ghost' markings where the pioneer set is supposed to go. I don't doubt tho that it will build into a decent model...that is, with a little help from the AM.
Tread.
Although...the one item I really do like about the Shermans is the road wheel build up...much easier than any german AFV road wheel set!
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Remember Tread, we were also one of the most bureacratic nations in the world. Tank has a high profile because it was designed to use a tall aircraft radial engine. Tank is narrow so it could be transported via existing rail lines. Had a puny 75mm gun because the Army Ground Forces still considered the tank an infantry support weapon. I do like the Sherman, just not 'over the top' like some. My statement was meant to convey that I am trying to increase my affection for the Sherm'...that is all. Maybe there's too much of the Draftsman/Engineer in me, but some of the design parameters for the Sherman, considering it was developed by supposedly the greatest industrialized nation in the world are a little.....confusing.
TreadHead
Joined: January 12, 2002
KitMaker: 5,000 posts
Armorama: 2,868 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 11:41 AM UTC
Good answers all Rob. Question though, what 'bureaucratic' design parameters were used for the Pershing? Same time, same Bat channel...
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
This one's easier, even without my references...the Pershing was the answer to the Panthers and Tigers. The commander of the Army Ground Forces at the time was an artilleryman and he did not want to give the anti-tank mission up to the armor corps. This is why the 90mm wasn't introduced into the Sherman line. The design parameters were basically, "make a tank that can kill the German ones". I do believe that if they up-gunned the Shermans with a 90mm gun/turret, it would have been a real killer.Good answers all Rob. Question though, what 'bureaucratic' design parameters were used for the Pershing?
They did eventually see the need for a heavier vehicle that could stand toe-to-toe with the German heavies since the lightly armored M-36s and M-10s were getting pounded with their thin armor and the open tops made them vulnerable to dismounted troops. So an up-armored vehicle was produced that could mount the 90mm. Since the radial engine was not used, the height of the vehicle decreased, and the increase of the weight required a wider vehicle with wider tracks.
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