Hi all

New armor builder here as well a sherman enthusiast, I have been doing tons of reaserch on kits aftermarket stuff and variants and such. And I have a question that some people my blast on the new kid for but I hope not. Anyway I have learned that the TAsca kits are Handsdown the Sherman Builders kits out of the box they are the bomb, and Dragon is so so on some good on other but all need help and same with Tamiya. Would I be correct in this?

Now on to aftermarket,I dont know but I am just generalizing to say that most of the builder out there would have Dragon and Tamiya kits with sprikles of couple Tascas because they are $$. So I have been looking and it seems to me that I would 90% or aftermarket bigstuff say hull and turrets are all for the tasca kits and a pinch for dragon and tamiyas, with as I read will work with loads of work.

Why would such great kits need all the hulls and turrets and such and the Dragon and Tamiya kits dont really have the upgrade to become good kits like the Tascas OOB. Can any of you senior Sherm builders shed some light I am just curious.

Thunder

More or less, yes.




It's not at all clear what you are trying to say here, but it seems like you mean that you've found that most aftermarket stuff is for the Tasca kits rather than DML or Tamiya. That could be true because you normally want to start with the best kit available.




I think a lot of the parts for the other kits has just drifted out of production.

The aftermarket exists to correct, enhance, and change. There is very little out there to correct Tasca parts. The only large correction pieces I know of are welded M4/M4A1 lower hulls. Tasca's marking schemes sometimes are for tanks from different factories that didn't have riveted lowers, so you need to correct the construction to match the markings. The other stuff is usually small like hoisting eyes that are really arcane differences between the construction methods at various tank factories.

All plastic kits include production compromises in the details - they can't make everything exactly to scale, and if they could you couldn't afford it. So, there are a lot of PE sets to make parts with a more realistic thickness, and others with additional detailing like factory symbols and factory-unique configurations.

Finally, there are a number of sets to change what's in the box, either to make tanks not kitted or to change details to match different configurations.

When the Tamiya and DML kits were the only thing available the knowledge of the available variations didn't exist, so there wasn't aftermarket to depict it. For example, New TMD has several hull hoisting eye sets for Tasca kits. Until quite recently, people didn't know about all the different variations and that there was some sense to them. So, even though there may have been differences noted, everyone thought they were just random combinations and the kit pieces were as good as any other, so no need for aftermarket.

Also, the kit manufacturing technology has improved and more distinctly different parts are possible. These pieces are made for Tasca, because companies aren't going to make sets (for DML and Tamiya) that no one is going to buy.

KL

What Kurt said!

In addition, if you look back over the years, aftermarket items have always been produced for whatever are the best kits of each version on the market for exactly the reasons Kurt mentioned. Also, given the nature of the hobby, if you go to a model show with people selling their own collection, you'll find a LOT of aftermarket stuff for sale for kits that haven't been produced or been at the top of the food chain for many years but were when the parts were made.

Paul

Speaking of the Tasca Shermans, I have Legend's M$A3E8 upgrade for the Tasca kit, and the mantlet cover alone makes the conversion worth getting. There are certain limitations in injection molding that are eliminated with resin parts, and this piece benefits from that very well. I'm always a fan of PE stowage shelves as well, although I used to make them from brass stock.

As an aside, is there anyone else out there who would like to see stowage precast onto these shelves as one piece? Not Verlinden type stowage place onto the shelf, but actually fitted into the shelf, and tied down.

One of Legends Sherman stowage boxes has exactly that. Stowage already cast as part of the shelf and tied down. The issue with mine is that the tie down (ropes, chain... i forget) gets damaged in transit (assuming it wasn't miscast upfront), so you kinda have to scrape it off and do it yourself anyway. Same goes for the logs wraped in chain in the same set.

Gents

Thanks for the replies, I guess I am on the other end of the spectrum, being a new armor modeler, never built one yet, and seeing that the tasca's are lots of money and almost no corrections out of the box, where us novice builders and less $ for the tasca's would like to get to the correctness of the tasca's with tamiya or dragon kits with a few changes, instead of the many more other afm needed to get those close now. Plus a whole lot more skill set involved then some of currently have to makes the changes. My thinking was make upadtes and corrections to the ok kits (Dragon,Tamiya) to good kits standard (tascas) instead of making the good kits even more, I see it is a full circle andI see I have alot to learn but was just curious and thought I would ask. Thanks alot for taking the time to help I appreciate it. And hopefully when I get back from afghanistan i can finally finish my panther A.

Eugene

Since you've never built an armor kit, the first one likely won't be a masterpiece. I would suggest getting a Tamiya Sherman and put it together. Don't worry about all the aftermarket bits and pieces. You can spend that money and time as you develop your taste and skills.

If down the line you want to tackle a project to make an 'accurate' [whatever], then pick a subject from a book or photograph and assemble the pieces to build 'that' tank.

Taking one of the older kits and tarting it up is a classic way to not only keep your modelling costs down, but also to improve your skills. If you search around on the net, many of the aftermarket producers have accessories that work with older kits, in addition you can _always_ make these parts yourself. Remember, someone has made them, from scratch, to provide the master for the accessory. You can make some of them yourself as well, once you get the basics down pat. Plus, Ebay is a great source of older AM sets.

But, at the beginning, I wouldn't worry too much about _any_ of the aftermarket stuff. Concentrate on the basic building and painting skills and do it with some of the older but pretty good kits to keep both your costs and frustration levels down as some of the newer kits have a LOT of parts and can be a challenge to build. Even for experienced builders.

Paul

Yes, that's LF 1116. I'm envisioning something a little different - useful for both WWII and more modern IDF - no visible fuel cans, but perhaps just the corner of a box visible for interest. Maybe two different pieces per set?

Thanks for you guys insight, I guess being new to armor I don't really understand how the AM works, I was thinking you make the conversions and upgrades to fix the kits with the problems to get them to the standards of the kits that are great out of the box. And thanks again for taking the time to post and help the new guy.

I am still trying to figure out the Sherman III and Sherman V equvilants. I see most is engine deck and doors, But I am just super confused as to the kits. Because not many pictures and almost everywhere I look on here and track link, there is many changes, So I am still lost. Mostly with the SHIII/M4A2 i think, and also what commonwealth does say the Tamiya M4 35190 represent. I read somewhere only a sherman VC but dont recall and I think it was the Dragon M4 (105) could be a VC also if yo swapped Turrets because the Turret was wrong.

I am no way a rivet counter guy, but would like to be pretty close accurate when building, I think my first 3 all tamiyas will be test kits now like you guys have mentioned as I was hoping that those could be made into commoweatlh tanks but read it's probably not possible.And before I get into my dragons, I see that as daunting already as I have read they are not very accurate and need tons of work. I have the follow kits below.

Tamiya-

M4
M4A3 Breakthrough x2, 1 with ADV Firefly Turret
M4A3 105

Dragon

M4 (105) x2
M4 Normandy x2
M4 76(W) Battle of Bulge
M4A2 Tarawa x2
Firefly IcH

Orange Box
Sherman III

Yeah, that's part of it, but you also use the AM stuff to build variants taht are not available in any kit box. Also remember, no kit is perfect and they _all_ have flaws that can be corrected by AM parts or, better yet, by your own hand as you develop more skill. As a new modeller, do NOT go straight to AM parts or accessory sets. Build out of the box and after you get the basics down, move up the detail pyramid slowly as you gain confidence and skill.




Other than the M4 and M4A1 Sherman variants, all the other variants are divided only by engine installation:

Engine US designation UK Designation

Continental Radial M4 Sherman I
Continental Radial* M4A1 Sherman II
GMC 6-71 Diesels M4A2 Sherman III
Ford GAA M4A3 Sherman IV
Chrysler Multibank M4A4 Sherman V
Allocated for Ram M4A5 (unused)
Caterpillar D200A M4A6 none

* completely cast upper hull

On top of that you have variants within the variants. The British further designated Shermans based upon the armament with the usual 75mm having no designation modifier, the 76mm M1 gun adding an "A" to the designation of any Sherman, the 105mm how adding a "B" and the 17 pdr adding a "C".

Soooo, a Sherman IC was a M4 sherman with a 17 pdr. A Sherman 1B was an M4 105mm and a Sherman IA was a M4 76W. The Brits did not differentiate between the early 56 degree hulls or the later 47 deg huls in the designation and neither did the US. You have to _know_ that the Sherman IA was only on the later 47 degree wet hull as that's the only way the US built them. Similarly a Sherman I Hybrid was an M4 with the late cast hull _front_ and welded remainder. The US called this a M4 Composite. A Sherman IC was a Firefly on that hull whether it had the larger or smaller hatches or 56 or 47 deg hull.

There is no simple "this equals that" chart for how the designations cross reference as the two armies found different things important enough to track in the designations.




In what way, specifically? The Sherman III _is_ the M4A2


It's a Plain Jane Sherman I and while I can't remember exactly what units had them, I'm pretty sure Sherman Is fought with the Commenwealth somewhere. What might be your problem is that the exact production variant depicted by the Tamiya kit may _not_ have served with the Commonwealth (I don't know about that and its a very good question to ask). Each of the main variants of Sherman evolved a lot over the 4 or less years they were in production.

Additional armuor, new hatches, changing gun mantlets and ditfferential housings and even real, but subtle changes in hull shape from one factory to the next supposedly building the exact same subvariant! Until you get a LOT more information and research material it is better to look at a particular photo and then try to build a model to match that as best as you can.

This is also where some of the smaller AM parts come in. You might find that the tank you want to build is almost exactly like the Tamiya kit, except it has a different cupola configuration, different headlight guards, a
different siren and different air cleaners at the back. All of the parts listed above are easy to source from the AM guys and simple to add to your kit to make it exactly the variant in your photo.

For a first model, I'd ignore the differences and build the kit out of the box, get close with the accuracy and concentrate on a clean build and nice paint job. Once you've done that a few times step up your game and try some of the smaller accessories.




Fair enough, but concentrate on basic building and painting skills for several models before you worry too much on getting more accurate. You can easily spend a lot of time and money on accessories only to find you don't really have the skill to use them correctly, bugger up the job, get frustrated and then want to throw the kit at a wall.

This is not considered enjoying our hobby, by most modellers.



Perfect Commonwealth kits? Perhpas not. Perfectly fun kits to build and paint and then mark as if they were Commonwealth? Sure, why not! Remember, this is supposed to be FUN, dammit!

If you really want your Shermans to be accurate, buy a few other kits to hone your skills on. Older Tamiya kits can be found online and at model shows/swap meets for relatively little money. They build quickly and easily and then are fun to paint up and learn weathering on. Build 5-10 of these and _then_ come back to the Shermans to start making modifications and learning to use aftermarket parts.

Waaaay less stress and way more fun.

Remember, it's kinda like gambling, if you can't afford to bugger it up, don't build it. If it means too much for the model to not be perfect, then a) hold off until your skills improve and b) take a chill pill because NO KIT IS EVER PERFECT!

Relax, learn the basics, have fun, challence yourself with tougher builds only when you feel like doing it and that it will still be fun.

I've been building models for over 45 years and I still bugger things up and still seldom win awards. I still compete, I still scratchbuild, I still make masters for others and it's still fun!

Paul

As you have no doubt seen Shermans can get really confusing. I would suggest getting a good book, Hunnicutt's "Sherman, A History of the American Medium Tank" is considered the Bible but is quite expensive and rotates in and out of print, You might want to go with Steven Zaloga's books, for example "Armored Spearhead" which has a lot of great detail as well. It will introduce you to things like Direct Vision hulls, Shermans with the old M3 suspensions and dry vs wet stowage.

JOWADY's right! But at this point, if you look hard enough, you can still find A LOT of photo etch, resin updates and resin conversions for the older TAMIYA M4s and virtually ALL of DRAGON's Sherman kits. Bear in mind that yes, TASCA's Shermans are on the top of the heap, but the DRAGON and TAMIYA kits will still build up into highly respectable models, if you're not building to impress nit-pickers or AMPS judges... The whole purpose of modelling is TO ENJOY YOURSELF WITH IT, AND NOT STRESS YOURSELF OUT because there was a nearly microscopic casting number left off your kit. And if the TASCA Shermans are so perfect, why are there so many "corrections" and "updates" out there for them? Every kid likes his newest toy best... Until he gets a newer one... Just enjoy yourself- you won't get so frustrated that you'll get to the point where you'll want to give your hobby up...

PS- FORMATIONS makes some gorgeous stuff for 1/35 and 1/48 Shermans, too...