I want to have a go at pugments but I'm bewildered.
One, because I don't know what to buy - there is too much choice, the range is too big.
Two, because I don't really know what to do with them.
I have found plenty of videos but they are mostly short, just dive in, and often don't say what they are using.
What I could do with is some step by step guides explaining what they are doing, what product, what colours are being used.
That way I can decide what I should buy and how to use them.
Thanks for any advice.
Cheers,
Nigel
AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
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Any Beginners Guides for Pigments
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
Armorama: 204 posts
Posted: Monday, May 13, 2013 - 11:58 PM UTC
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 12:14 AM UTC
First, you should buy the pigments that you think will be used on most of your builds. You can find beginner's sets from most manufacturers. I would recommend rust and dirt pigments. There are several books, most notably Mig and AK Interactive that cover weathering. I apply pigments, after the model is built and painted. You can use a cotton swab, damp with water to apply the pigments. Build up layers. Then, apply a small amount of IPA(rubbing alcohol) to the pigments you want to stick. After this has dried, you can remove the excess with a clean cotton rag, paper towel or any other soft, lint free clothe. Apply a flat clear coat. And, most important, practice practice practice.
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
Armorama: 204 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
First, you should buy the pigments that you think will be used on most of your builds. You can find beginner's sets from most manufacturers.
This is my first problem - I look at a range of say 40 pigments and think which ones. I was advised to look at the Pinacle range - they don't have starter sets and have 6 different rusts just for staters. Look at mud, sand, earth and dust and that adds another 16 different colours.
The only starter sets I have seen are from MIG. Even then they do
Fresh mud
Urban Combat
Sand and earth
Rust and smoke
Which to buy?
Basically I want to start small, spend a small amount and see how I get on.
But with so much choice and not knowing what I need nor how to use it I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.
Cheers,
Nigel
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:54 AM UTC
Hi Nigel,
Maybe these notes from one of our AMPS chapter's demos might give you some ideas:
AMPS Central SC::Weathering Pigments and Pastels
Feel free to surf around some on our Group Builds & Demos page to see if there's any other useful bits:
AMPS Central SC::Group Builds & Demos Page
HTH
Maybe these notes from one of our AMPS chapter's demos might give you some ideas:
AMPS Central SC::Weathering Pigments and Pastels
Feel free to surf around some on our Group Builds & Demos page to see if there's any other useful bits:
AMPS Central SC::Group Builds & Demos Page
HTH
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:59 AM UTC
If you can find them, I started using pigments with the Doc' Obriens line. They should be available on EBay. It comes with 12 different pigments, if I remember correctly. There are a few different rust colors, some for specific camo and several earth tones.
Thudius
Joined: October 22, 2012
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 1,077 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 02:01 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextFirst, you should buy the pigments that you think will be used on most of your builds. You can find beginner's sets from most manufacturers.
This is my first problem - I look at a range of say 40 pigments and think which ones. I was advised to look at the Pinacle range - they don't have starter sets and have 6 different rusts just for staters. Look at mud, sand, earth and dust and that adds another 16 different colours.
The only starter sets I have seen are from MIG. Even then they do
Fresh mud
Urban Combat
Sand and earth
Rust and smoke
Which to buy?
Basically I want to start small, spend a small amount and see how I get on.
But with so much choice and not knowing what I need nor how to use it I'm suffering from analysis paralysis.
Cheers,
Nigel
I sort of had the same problem getting back in to the game. So much choice. What I ended up doing was getting ochre, umber and sienna Vallejos (they were on sale) and found a set of 24 chalk pastels at Lidl for 5 euro bucks. Just scrape with a sharp blade or sandpaper to get your powder. Pigments can be mixed to get any colour, shade or tint you want, hence the pastels. Get familiar with colour theory/mixing if you aren't already. I've been using Vallejo Matt Glaze for my experimenting and it's looking promising.
Basically I use two techniques: apply thinned medium to the areas I want and then add pigment by basically loading a brush and tapping it onto the surface for a bit of build up, or mixing thinned medium with pigments and applying to areas. You can combine the two techniques to get layers going. This can be done while the first layer is wet, or dry. While wet, you can also blend and feather with a brush.
If you use heavily thinned medium, you can also apply washes or filters. To get heavy mud, you should really add some plaster or celluclay, or something like that to bulk up the pigment. When the pigments have dried, you can still go back with a moist brush or cotton bud and remove any excess.
As mentioned above, experimentation and practice is the only way to find a way that works for you and to see how the pigments react and look like when they dry. I'd advise going with the 3 basic colours I mentioned above for starters and start messing about. Just remember that pigments need a fixer or they will, over time, rub off.
Kimmo
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
Armorama: 204 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 03:55 AM UTC
In my searches I've seen plenty of recommendations to use pastels instead. Whilst it makes perfect sense, for me it is just another addition to my information overload.
At this stage, I'd prefer to have pre-mixed colours representing mud, dust, rust etc. then having to figure out how to mix my own.
I have looked at pastels though and a local art store has a set of earth tones which looks useful - basically 12 shades of brown from almost white to almost black. That is about £8 from the local craft chain store.
These ones
http://www.pullingers.com/product_image.php?product_id=OAIMPSE12&pic=OAIMPSE12.jpg
Sell them at Hobby Craft.
Cheers,
Nigel
At this stage, I'd prefer to have pre-mixed colours representing mud, dust, rust etc. then having to figure out how to mix my own.
I have looked at pastels though and a local art store has a set of earth tones which looks useful - basically 12 shades of brown from almost white to almost black. That is about £8 from the local craft chain store.
These ones
http://www.pullingers.com/product_image.php?product_id=OAIMPSE12&pic=OAIMPSE12.jpg
Sell them at Hobby Craft.
Cheers,
Nigel
Thudius
Joined: October 22, 2012
KitMaker: 1,194 posts
Armorama: 1,077 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 04:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In my searches I've seen plenty of recommendations to use pastels instead. Whilst it makes perfect sense, for me it is just another addition to my information overload.
At this stage, I'd prefer to have pre-mixed colours representing mud, dust, rust etc. then having to figure out how to mix my own.
I have looked at pastels though and a local art store has a set of earth tones which looks useful - basically 12 shades of brown from almost white to almost black. That is about £8 from the local craft chain store.
These ones
http://www.pullingers.com/product_image.php?product_id=OAIMPSE12&pic=OAIMPSE12.jpg
Sell them at Hobby Craft.
Cheers,
Nigel
Those should be good to start with, especially at that price. The reason I got the 3 pigments that I did is seen in that set. Light tan, mid slightly reddish brown, dark brown. Mix a bit of each and you get another 3-5 distinct shades. If you can get another 6-8 pastel set of basic colours, you'd have all you really need. Using reds and blues and so on may not come up often, but they give you a nice palette to work with rather than using straight earth tones for effects other than, well, earth.
Kimmo
Kimmo
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
Armorama: 204 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 11:19 AM UTC
Anyone tried any of the MIG Sets?
What are the guides like - worth having.
I ask because the jars can be bought seperately for slightly cheaper and you can customise your selection.
So the set would only be worthwhile if the guides that are included is good.
Are the guides generic, possibly the same in each set or are they specifically targeted at the set they come with?
Cheers,
Nigel
What are the guides like - worth having.
I ask because the jars can be bought seperately for slightly cheaper and you can customise your selection.
So the set would only be worthwhile if the guides that are included is good.
Are the guides generic, possibly the same in each set or are they specifically targeted at the set they come with?
Cheers,
Nigel
didgeboy
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 01:29 PM UTC
Nigel;
I have used art chalk pastels for a while and I have found that a box of 12 earth tones is great from light yellow/sand to charcoal black with oranges and browns I between. You can create dust of many types as well as rust and soot. Pigments are just the same just more clealy defined in their colours and pre ground. Chalk pastels need to be ground, I just use a hobby knife to scrape off what I need and go. A good natural stiff bristle brush is great for applying and only occasionally do I use a soft bush but for some applications it works better. The best rule of thumb is to figure out what you build most. I build only modern and I find my self drawn to Middle East subjects and some European too. I find that sand, euro dust and soot are my main go to's. With rust a second and much less need. Some metallics are handy to have for last minute guns and drive sprocket touch ups. With that in mind mig, ak are both good brands. Find what is near by affordable and start with 3 or 4 and see if they work for you. If you have more questions post them here or feel free to send a PM to me, happy to answer any questions Incan and point you in the right direction when i can't. Cheers.
I have used art chalk pastels for a while and I have found that a box of 12 earth tones is great from light yellow/sand to charcoal black with oranges and browns I between. You can create dust of many types as well as rust and soot. Pigments are just the same just more clealy defined in their colours and pre ground. Chalk pastels need to be ground, I just use a hobby knife to scrape off what I need and go. A good natural stiff bristle brush is great for applying and only occasionally do I use a soft bush but for some applications it works better. The best rule of thumb is to figure out what you build most. I build only modern and I find my self drawn to Middle East subjects and some European too. I find that sand, euro dust and soot are my main go to's. With rust a second and much less need. Some metallics are handy to have for last minute guns and drive sprocket touch ups. With that in mind mig, ak are both good brands. Find what is near by affordable and start with 3 or 4 and see if they work for you. If you have more questions post them here or feel free to send a PM to me, happy to answer any questions Incan and point you in the right direction when i can't. Cheers.
c5flies
Joined: October 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,684 posts
Armorama: 2,938 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 01:32 AM UTC
russamotto
Joined: December 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,389 posts
Armorama: 2,054 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 04:20 AM UTC
Great link, James.
Nigel, I use ground chalk pastels in place of pigments, mainly because of cost. I use earth tones and also the full color range, as you can get a lot of variety using blues, greens, reds and yellows. Adding red to green, or orange to blue will give you a grayed down town of the dominant color. I have different shades of earth and rust and different grades of black with green, blue and red. I will simply take a pastel stick, carefully shave it down with a razor, and experiment with color combinations.
As an alternative, I will also get different types of soil and clay and carefully crush and sift the samples to a fine powder as well. Sanding rusted metal gives nice shades of real rust.
For metal, I have ground graphite from pencils and have also a small assortment of graphite pencils in several hardness levels as well as high quality artists pencils in metallic shades-silver, gold, brass-for touching up or adding small details as well.
I have mixed the pastels with white spirit to apply to models, added them with oil washes and brushed them on straight.
Nigel, I use ground chalk pastels in place of pigments, mainly because of cost. I use earth tones and also the full color range, as you can get a lot of variety using blues, greens, reds and yellows. Adding red to green, or orange to blue will give you a grayed down town of the dominant color. I have different shades of earth and rust and different grades of black with green, blue and red. I will simply take a pastel stick, carefully shave it down with a razor, and experiment with color combinations.
As an alternative, I will also get different types of soil and clay and carefully crush and sift the samples to a fine powder as well. Sanding rusted metal gives nice shades of real rust.
For metal, I have ground graphite from pencils and have also a small assortment of graphite pencils in several hardness levels as well as high quality artists pencils in metallic shades-silver, gold, brass-for touching up or adding small details as well.
I have mixed the pastels with white spirit to apply to models, added them with oil washes and brushed them on straight.
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
Armorama: 204 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 09:54 PM UTC
Thanks James, that is a fantastic link and illustrates well what I'm trying to acheive initially.
Given my lack of experience with airbrushing and weathering in particular, I want to initally start with tanks in good working order but showing dust, grime and a little light rust. So the 38t look in the arcticle is what I'm after.
Although the pastel route is attractive from a price point of view, it just adds another creativity challenge on top of the many I already have, so I'd really like to stick to ready made pigments to start with.
So if my aim were the a dusty, grimey look with some slight rust, Western Europe and North AfricaItaly what would be a good starting set of colours (say 10). Consider I've already picked out a soot, a couple of rusts and a steel, so 6 or so left for dustsandearthmud.
Bear in mind this is just for starters and once I build up confidence I may well try out pastels or move on to more heavy mud weathering.
Cheers,
Nigel
nheather
Joined: November 12, 2007
KitMaker: 295 posts
Armorama: 204 posts
Posted: Friday, May 17, 2013 - 06:36 AM UTC
Value for Money - Pastels vs Ready Made
Today I bought myself a set of 12 earthtone pastels for £8 (about $12). Individual sticks are around £1 ($1.50) each.
You can get sets for cheaper but these tend to contain lots of primary colours that I wouldn't use - I guess those with a better artistic eye than me could mix these effectively, but for me there is a lot of waste in these generic sets.
So is it cheaper. At first glance it looks a lot cheaper. I have 12 colors which would cost me close to £50 ($75) if I went for something like Mig.
But if you look at quantity it isn't so clear cut.
My sticks are 63mmx9mmx9mm = just a tad over 5cc or 5ml
That is assuming I can reduce them to powder efficiently without any wastage.
So my 12 sticks amount to 60ml in total and cost £8 ($12)
3 jars of Mig would amount to 60ml and cost about £10 ($15)
2 jars of Pinnacle would amount to 80ml and cost about £8 ($12)
On top of they are ready made and come with containers.
So the benefit of pastels is that you can buy smaller quantities and hence more colours for less.
But if you were to try and match quantities then pastels are about the same price and less convient.
I'm glad I bought my pastels, because it gives me something to experiment with for a small outlay. However, once I become comfortable with the colours I need I can see me switching to brands.
Cheers,
Nigel
Today I bought myself a set of 12 earthtone pastels for £8 (about $12). Individual sticks are around £1 ($1.50) each.
You can get sets for cheaper but these tend to contain lots of primary colours that I wouldn't use - I guess those with a better artistic eye than me could mix these effectively, but for me there is a lot of waste in these generic sets.
So is it cheaper. At first glance it looks a lot cheaper. I have 12 colors which would cost me close to £50 ($75) if I went for something like Mig.
But if you look at quantity it isn't so clear cut.
My sticks are 63mmx9mmx9mm = just a tad over 5cc or 5ml
That is assuming I can reduce them to powder efficiently without any wastage.
So my 12 sticks amount to 60ml in total and cost £8 ($12)
3 jars of Mig would amount to 60ml and cost about £10 ($15)
2 jars of Pinnacle would amount to 80ml and cost about £8 ($12)
On top of they are ready made and come with containers.
So the benefit of pastels is that you can buy smaller quantities and hence more colours for less.
But if you were to try and match quantities then pastels are about the same price and less convient.
I'm glad I bought my pastels, because it gives me something to experiment with for a small outlay. However, once I become comfortable with the colours I need I can see me switching to brands.
Cheers,
Nigel
SdAufKla
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Friday, May 17, 2013 - 07:26 AM UTC
Something to keep in mind, Nigel, is that pastel sticks are formed with dry pigments and gum Arabic as an adhesive. Once ground-up and turned to powder, they're not exactly the same substance as dry pigments - close but not exact.
Once ground up, they are much "stickier" than dry pigments, so application by brush is usually more secure than with comparable dry pigments.
This is not a problem unless you forget and wonder why your dry pigments won't apply by brush and stick like the ground-up pastels that you've been using.
This is actually one reason why I prefer pastel stick black and grays for exhaust and gun powder staining over dry pigments. The pastels stay where you put them better and with less effort.
Another advantage of the pastels is that a student artist set of half-sticks is very inexpensive, but gives you all of the various colors that you only ever need to use seldom - like greens, reds, and blues. Sometimes just a touch of an unusual pastel color is just want you want or need for faded or streaked paint, variations on rust stains, mold or moss on a base, or stains on uniforms, etc.
Once ground up, they are much "stickier" than dry pigments, so application by brush is usually more secure than with comparable dry pigments.
This is not a problem unless you forget and wonder why your dry pigments won't apply by brush and stick like the ground-up pastels that you've been using.
This is actually one reason why I prefer pastel stick black and grays for exhaust and gun powder staining over dry pigments. The pastels stay where you put them better and with less effort.
Another advantage of the pastels is that a student artist set of half-sticks is very inexpensive, but gives you all of the various colors that you only ever need to use seldom - like greens, reds, and blues. Sometimes just a touch of an unusual pastel color is just want you want or need for faded or streaked paint, variations on rust stains, mold or moss on a base, or stains on uniforms, etc.
sunburnthammer
Joined: August 29, 2007
KitMaker: 17 posts
Armorama: 6 posts
KitMaker: 17 posts
Armorama: 6 posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 - 05:16 AM UTC
Great advice for beginners.
I see a lot of issues mentioned in relation to try to seal the pigment. I have seen some great videos where pigment is mixed with thinner, painted on the model and then the dried excess brushed away to make rust streaks. However it does not mention sealing the pigment with a gloss/satin. Is this possible as I would hate for the hard work to removed from the model with fingers. I understand that usually if a a varnish is applied to pigment it will almost remove or hide it.
Ian
I see a lot of issues mentioned in relation to try to seal the pigment. I have seen some great videos where pigment is mixed with thinner, painted on the model and then the dried excess brushed away to make rust streaks. However it does not mention sealing the pigment with a gloss/satin. Is this possible as I would hate for the hard work to removed from the model with fingers. I understand that usually if a a varnish is applied to pigment it will almost remove or hide it.
Ian
firstcircle
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,249 posts
Armorama: 2,007 posts
Posted: Friday, June 21, 2013 - 12:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I understand that usually if a a varnish is applied to pigment it will almost remove or hide it.
I don't know about removing it, but I think it is true that it would change the appearance in terms of colour and texture. The point is I guess that if you apply varnish to something that is absorbent then it will make it appear darker, as if it is permanently wet in a way (like if you varnish a piece of stone for example). One of the special qualities of pigments is that texture quality they have, not just their colour.
The best advice for not removing them with fingers is to make sure that any model finished in this way is mounted on a base, however small and plain it is, that will allow it to be safley handled without touching the model itself. The simplest thing in my view is just buying a thick sheet of black styrene. Cutting to size and a little sanding of the cut edges is all that is needed to produce something that looks more than acceptable.
In terms of the original question on this thread, Vallejo do various sets of four colours which are around £11 or £12; the Rust and Oil one would probably be an OK starting point.
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