A contentious subject I know, but has any new evidence been found for Michael Wittmann's PzIII?
I'm going to do this in parallel with the Tiger renovation mainly to use as a learning tool for techniques that will be new and pretty alien to me.
Having spent hours trawling the web and reading any material I can find, the only thing I have found out with any degree of certainty is that it was a Late J, or maybe and L, or it could possibly have been an M. .
I've picked the Tamiya Panzer III ausf L up for a song and it seems pretty good. I'll throw an Eduard etch set at it, which again is cheap as chips, and if I can find some Dragon PzIII magic Tracks that somebody doesn't want I'll use those.
So the questions:
1. Will using an L be definitely wrong, or is it a case of prove me wrong?
2. Are we looking at a Panzer Grey scheme with whitewash? I've found one image that shows that on an M!
I'm trying to keep this cheap, but still get a reasonable outcome, so any pointers along the way will be most appreciated, and I really do want criticism.
The WIP will start in the next couple of days once the etch arrives.
Rich
Hosted by Darren Baker
Michael Wittmann's 4L1
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 - 11:50 PM UTC
sherman-vc
Joined: September 13, 2005
KitMaker: 254 posts
Armorama: 205 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 08:18 AM UTC
Hi Rich,
I too have been reseaching this, Would have to be a late J as the L was not yet in production when Wittman was in command of the light platoon.
Grey with whitewash would be the way to go, there are lots of photos of other III Js belonging to 1SS at Karkov January 43.
Regards,
Rod
I too have been reseaching this, Would have to be a late J as the L was not yet in production when Wittman was in command of the light platoon.
Grey with whitewash would be the way to go, there are lots of photos of other III Js belonging to 1SS at Karkov January 43.
Regards,
Rod
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 08:13 PM UTC
Thanks Rod.
Where did you get your info from? The limited refs I've found show that MW was transferred back to unit training in Dec 42 where he was given the command of the light unit.
According to Photosniper 3 by Kagero the ausf L was in production from June 42 to Dec 42, so could well have reached MW's unit by the time he took the light unit over. It's still even possible that it could have been an M, but unlikely as these didn't go into production until Oct 42. I can't see these having been rushed to the front just for MW, but you never know!.
Sorry if this has thrown a spanner in the works Rod. I'd still like to know what refs you have since mine are limited to a few books lent to me by a friend, many of which have no english in them so are just photo refs for me. The rest has been gleaned from trawling the internet, and we all know how reliable some of that is!!!!!
Rich
Where did you get your info from? The limited refs I've found show that MW was transferred back to unit training in Dec 42 where he was given the command of the light unit.
According to Photosniper 3 by Kagero the ausf L was in production from June 42 to Dec 42, so could well have reached MW's unit by the time he took the light unit over. It's still even possible that it could have been an M, but unlikely as these didn't go into production until Oct 42. I can't see these having been rushed to the front just for MW, but you never know!.
Sorry if this has thrown a spanner in the works Rod. I'd still like to know what refs you have since mine are limited to a few books lent to me by a friend, many of which have no english in them so are just photo refs for me. The rest has been gleaned from trawling the internet, and we all know how reliable some of that is!!!!!
Rich
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 01:28 AM UTC
And so it begins.....
Lots more lovely etch, Eduard this time, which is ok'ish. Aber is the stuff, but twice the price near enough.
About two hours to get the hull in the state it is now. The top and bottom aren't glued together as there are bits to do before I join them up.
I've also been having fun with etch
. Thought I'd practice on one of the hull interior parts before I cock something important up. You can see from the scalpel handle its size, and sorry for being out of focus but the phone wouldn't focus this close but any further away it was too tiny.
Rich
Lots more lovely etch, Eduard this time, which is ok'ish. Aber is the stuff, but twice the price near enough.
About two hours to get the hull in the state it is now. The top and bottom aren't glued together as there are bits to do before I join them up.
I've also been having fun with etch
. Thought I'd practice on one of the hull interior parts before I cock something important up. You can see from the scalpel handle its size, and sorry for being out of focus but the phone wouldn't focus this close but any further away it was too tiny.
Rich
Dannyd
Joined: March 27, 2007
KitMaker: 803 posts
Armorama: 793 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 19, 2013 - 01:48 AM UTC
Some nice photo etch work Rich, nice work so far on the build,
looking forward to seeing more.
looking forward to seeing more.
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 05:17 AM UTC
Sorry for the very long delay, but as usual life has a habit of getting in the way!
I have been plugging away when I can and finally have a bit to show.
The first thing is the title is now wrong, this is going to be a scheme from the box as it would appear that 4L1 probably didn't exist as such, and was most likely an ausf M. I've picked up a Dragon one, but that's for another thread......
The kit is mainly together with some of the etch being applied now. It's going to be a mix of Eduard and ET models as to be honest the Eduard stuff is pretty rubbish really, but it does have a couple of bits not in the ET kit as it's meant for the Dragon M.
This is a trial fit of the exhaust deflector, not supplied by ET so I've used the Eduard one and soldered it together.
A pic of the kit as it stands at the moment.
Anyone got any advice on an alternate to photo bucket. the new format is terrible. Half the time I can't see the pic I'm linking to. Complete rubbish now!
I'll try to update more frequently, but it's nose to the grindstone on etch, then primer.
Rich
I have been plugging away when I can and finally have a bit to show.
The first thing is the title is now wrong, this is going to be a scheme from the box as it would appear that 4L1 probably didn't exist as such, and was most likely an ausf M. I've picked up a Dragon one, but that's for another thread......
The kit is mainly together with some of the etch being applied now. It's going to be a mix of Eduard and ET models as to be honest the Eduard stuff is pretty rubbish really, but it does have a couple of bits not in the ET kit as it's meant for the Dragon M.
This is a trial fit of the exhaust deflector, not supplied by ET so I've used the Eduard one and soldered it together.
A pic of the kit as it stands at the moment.
Anyone got any advice on an alternate to photo bucket. the new format is terrible. Half the time I can't see the pic I'm linking to. Complete rubbish now!
I'll try to update more frequently, but it's nose to the grindstone on etch, then primer.
Rich
Dannyd
Joined: March 27, 2007
KitMaker: 803 posts
Armorama: 793 posts
Posted: Sunday, June 30, 2013 - 05:24 AM UTC
Worth the wait Rich, a nice clean build so far, cracking work on the exhaust deflector, from experiance not the easiest to soldier up.
Keep at it mate and makesure you keep us all informed of the progress.
Regards
Dan
Keep at it mate and makesure you keep us all informed of the progress.
Regards
Dan
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 02:45 AM UTC
Minor update:
The weld lines on a Panzer III are quite prominent on the turret front. Tamiya vaguely represented these on the lower joint, but made them recessed. Using a technique I nicked of a mate (Dan), they have been accentuated.
This involves sticking stretched sprue where the weld line goes, then applying liquid cement in sufficient quantities that the sprue softens. Run along the bead gently pushing a tool of some kind into the surface, being careful not to overdo it. I used Mr Cement which worked really well, but I still need lots of practice yet. Not the best pics, but an iPad isn't the best tool for the job, especially since these are heavily cropped.
Before:
After:
I cleaned the slightly melted plastic near the bead up with some Mr Surfacer 1200.
Rich
The weld lines on a Panzer III are quite prominent on the turret front. Tamiya vaguely represented these on the lower joint, but made them recessed. Using a technique I nicked of a mate (Dan), they have been accentuated.
This involves sticking stretched sprue where the weld line goes, then applying liquid cement in sufficient quantities that the sprue softens. Run along the bead gently pushing a tool of some kind into the surface, being careful not to overdo it. I used Mr Cement which worked really well, but I still need lots of practice yet. Not the best pics, but an iPad isn't the best tool for the job, especially since these are heavily cropped.
Before:
After:
I cleaned the slightly melted plastic near the bead up with some Mr Surfacer 1200.
Rich
Dannyd
Joined: March 27, 2007
KitMaker: 803 posts
Armorama: 793 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 09:01 AM UTC
Starting to look real nice Rich, the welding is looking really good, it will make a big difference when you get to paint.
Keep it up
Dan
Keep it up
Dan
sherman-vc
Joined: September 13, 2005
KitMaker: 254 posts
Armorama: 205 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 09:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks Rod.
Where did you get your info from? The limited refs I've found show that MW was transferred back to unit training in Dec 42 where he was given the command of the light unit.
According to Photosniper 3 by Kagero the ausf L was in production from June 42 to Dec 42, so could well have reached MW's unit by the time he took the light unit over. It's still even possible that it could have been an M, but unlikely as these didn't go into production until Oct 42. I can't see these having been rushed to the front just for MW, but you never know!.
Sorry if this has thrown a spanner in the works Rod. I'd still like to know what refs you have since mine are limited to a few books lent to me by a friend, many of which have no english in them so are just photo refs for me. The rest has been gleaned from trawling the internet, and we all know how reliable some of that is!!!!!
Rich
Hey Rich,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Yes you are right I stand corrected, it could have been and L the only photo I have seen of of Wittman's Panzer III is in the Michael Wittman And The Waffen SS book by Patrick Agte. The same photo is in the Tigers in Combat book as well, but they don't say it's Wittman's Tank.
The Photo is from the front so I can't really say it's not an L. It's either a late J or L. The reason I would go with a late J (and I could be wrong) is that the other 1st SS Panzer III's at the time of Kharkov look to be J's, some have the spaced amour on the Mantle some don't.
Either way unless someone comes up with a photo of the vehicle with the chassis number who is to say where it's a J or L.
Looks like you have a nice build going keep up the good work.
Regards,
Rod
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 - 09:47 PM UTC
Hi Rod.
Since I started this little escapade the whole thing has got even more confusing.
Have you seen this thread?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1346100308/Pz+3++L+Kit+Options
Steve Ballantyne is apparently regarded as the man to go to for all things LAH in Russia, so really I'm no further forward, and am going to do this L as an OOB one. I've picked a Dragon Ausf M up and will do that as possibly 441, as I wonder if a dirty 4 could look like an L at a glance!
Any chance you could put that pic up, I'd be very interested to see it.
Rich
Since I started this little escapade the whole thing has got even more confusing.
Have you seen this thread?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1346100308/Pz+3++L+Kit+Options
Steve Ballantyne is apparently regarded as the man to go to for all things LAH in Russia, so really I'm no further forward, and am going to do this L as an OOB one. I've picked a Dragon Ausf M up and will do that as possibly 441, as I wonder if a dirty 4 could look like an L at a glance!
Any chance you could put that pic up, I'd be very interested to see it.
Rich
sherman-vc
Joined: September 13, 2005
KitMaker: 254 posts
Armorama: 205 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 03:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Rod.
Since I started this little escapade the whole thing has got even more confusing.
Have you seen this thread?
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1346100308/Pz+3++L+Kit+Options
Steve Ballantyne is apparently regarded as the man to go to for all things LAH in Russia, so really I'm no further forward, and am going to do this L as an OOB one. I've picked a Dragon Ausf M up and will do that as possibly 441, as I wonder if a dirty 4 could look like an L at a glance!
Any chance you could put that pic up, I'd be very interested to see it.
Rich
Hi Rich,
I feel your pain, I would like to build an example of all of Wittman’s rides, really tough to get anything on his early vehicles, sdkfz 222 or 221, sdkfz 231 8 rad or sdkfz 231 6 rad etc. It's almost impossible to tell where it's a panzer III J, L, or M from the front and whether it's a late J or L unless you have the chassis number.
Would have been nice had Mr. Ballantyne included his reference’s in that post. I guess you could post the question.
I have a couple of other projects to get off my bench before I start my Wittman project.
Best of luck, you are doing a good job on the Tamiya Panzer III hope you continue with it.
I don't have a scanner at home but I will get the page number from each book and post it maybe someone out there can post them for you, sorry about that.
Regards,
Rod
sherman-vc
Joined: September 13, 2005
KitMaker: 254 posts
Armorama: 205 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 03:22 AM UTC
Hi Rich,
Did a quick google search to see if I could get you that picture. Found this not sure if you have seen it but I think the Photo of the Panzer three is the one I was thinking of, I'll check the books at home.
http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_bio.asp?page=4
Regards,
Rod
Did a quick google search to see if I could get you that picture. Found this not sure if you have seen it but I think the Photo of the Panzer three is the one I was thinking of, I'll check the books at home.
http://www.panzerace.net/english/pz_bio.asp?page=4
Regards,
Rod
Drichc
Joined: April 13, 2013
KitMaker: 78 posts
Armorama: 76 posts
Posted: Thursday, July 11, 2013 - 09:34 AM UTC
Thanks Rod.
I'm going to keep at the Pz III, as I'm using it to practice new techniques (to me) on.
We have the same goal as my intention is also to try and do Herr Wittmanns vehicles, and I know exactly what you mean about information being thin on the ground.
I look forward to your project start, and maybe we can egg each other on.
Rich
I'm going to keep at the Pz III, as I'm using it to practice new techniques (to me) on.
We have the same goal as my intention is also to try and do Herr Wittmanns vehicles, and I know exactly what you mean about information being thin on the ground.
I look forward to your project start, and maybe we can egg each other on.
Rich
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