Hello,

I have been struggling to find information on 653.schwere PanzerJager Abteilung and the #102 Elefant that is now stored at Aberdeen. I am approaching the painting stage on my Dragon Elefant build and I plan on modeling the #102 Elefant from Italy, 1944. However, after some research I found pictures of the #102 that contradict the decal placement offered in the Dragon Kit.



Notice the Insignia of the 1 Co. 653.schwere PanzerJager Abteilung to the right of the gun mantlet. Apparently this Elefant had already been repainted shortly after capture.



In this picture, many years later, the Elefant has been worked over and re-painted. However, it still has not received the final restoration.

So from these images and other sources online, I found that at some point this Elefant had the unit insignia on the upper glacis plate. I do not however have any photografivc proof of the existance of this mark when this vehicle was operational. Indeed, In many pictures of the Elefants sent to Italy, the Iron Cross markings and numbers on the side of the vehicle are missing or impossible to make out. Also, the unit insignias sometimes appear on the rear of the vehicle, as well as the front, and sometimes there are none at all. The Dragon kit does not include a decal for this insignia.

So now, my question...does anyone know the correct marking pattern for this vehicle in action in Italy, 1944 (pre-capture)?

Is the Dragon Kit right, or was the insignia not modified when the #102 Elefant was repainted at the end of the war?


Thanks in advance,
Martin

Would this help ?



PS : welcome to Armorama

H.P.

If the caption on the image is correct, then yes, it helps very much

I have seen this picture (minus the caption), but I thought it was taken after it was captured and taken back to the U.S. (because of the battle damage consistent with that on the later pictures). But it would make sense that the damage shown was inflicted on the eastern front before the Ferdi/Elefant conversion.

One problem, this confirms my suspicion that this particular vehicle did not have zimmerit applied to the front plates. Now i have to remove some zimmerite form my model so much work!

Still, If anyone has details on the markings of these Elefants (101, 102, 111, 112, 113, 114, 121, 122, 123, 124, 131), or in other words, the ones sent to Italy, please share in case i decide to pick a different vehicle to reproduce

Thanks H.P!

Sorry, something to add:



This is from the book Ferdinand/Elefant Detail in Action. It shows 3 angles of the #102 Elefant shortly after capture. In these pictures i see no markings other than the "u" on the back, and the 102 on the side. Is it possible dirt and other weathering effects are covering up these marks? I think so, but I still would like to see these pictures more closely so I think I will buy the book.

You might need to zoom on the picture to see these details, its not very high res.

What about #124 ? :








H.P.

I have seen the first two images. I think i might build the 124, and order decals for that, just to save me the effort of removing zimmerit.

I was curious as to how and where it was knocked out, and I hoped to maybe find another picture of it before it was destroyed.

I found this in a post by Barbaringo on Feldgrau.net:

"First Elefant (Kuhl), as part of Kampfgruppe Stein, was lost on 1 march 1944 trying to turn around a destroyed bridge near Isola Bella (10/11).
Elefant (Koss) hit a mine in the same area and was ordered to ko (9/11).
Elefant (Roos) was hit in a track and was abandoned same area (8/11).
Elefant (?) turned out from an engine fire same area (7/11).
Elefant (?) was hit by american dive bombing on 5 june 1944 on via Aurelia (6/11).
Elefant (Grupe) crashed into the depths after the negotiating bridge collapsed on the road between Monte Fiascone and Orvieto (5/11)
Elefant (Schlabs) was hit by american dive bombing on 10 june 1944 near Orvieto (4/11).
Elefant (?) was lost for mechanical troubles and was destroyed near Ficulle (3/11).
It is not clear what happened to another Ferdinand in that only two vehicles + the damaged BergeElefant and one Pz III ammunition carrier were shipped on train to leave Italian theather."

All I know is the first 3 are not the #124, and the third (Roos) is probably the #102

I would guess the #124 was hit by a dive bomber, or it was destroyed internally by the crew.

Here's the corresponding caption :



H.P.

Alright, Thanks

My mind is made up, I will model the #124