I am learning a hard and quite disappointing lesson...
I am a lifelong model builder. I am also a veteran, an ex Tanker, a military gun collector and a military vehicle enthusiast and belong to several organizations in real world vintage vehicles and weapons. Well, I guess it's like this:
DON'T ever ask those guys ANYTHING. PERIOD.
I don't know what their overall problem is, but it's quite selfish and rude. You ask any of these guys for one little photo or a measurement and OMG what you'll get! At best, a polite "Go run along sonny". At worst, insults and derision for being one of those annoying "model people" asking stupid questions! I am appalled! I am shocked! Horrified even! What NERVE! What is WRONG with people these days? Good gawd, no wonder America is crumbling, with this "Go away, I got mine so leave me alone" mentality! Everyone has lost their minds!
Anyone else had bad experiences asking for help from real armor collectors? I'd like to hear it..
This relates to my quest to verify dimensions on the Dragon M16 AA halftrack..which has obvious problems..not ONE of my so-called "brothers" or "friends" with real M16 'tracks will lift a finger for me. We have here in Czech Republic a complete M16 in the armor museum at Lesany, so I'll cruise on over THERE and get what I need. But these guys I thought I knew in the veteran and WW2 collector community? They should hope they never find themselves on fire in my presence. I'll not waste the contents of my bladder towards their aid.

Hi Gary,

I guess you just bumped into the wrong kond of people. I only had good experiences. When I meet an owner of a vehicle I am interested in, I politely ask them if I can take some pictures and they always let me takes pictures. They are happy someone takes intrest in their vehicle. A while ago I was in a privately owned museum near Bastogne (battle of the bulge) and the guy running the museum saw me taking lot's of pictures of a Harley. He asked me if I wanted to sit on it so my friends could take pictures of me

Lesany is a great museum with lot's of unique vehicles, I have been their once. But..the indoor vehicles are hard to photograph because of the lack of light, and all vehicles are behind ropes. Having worked in CZ for a while, I know the Czech people are kind and relaxed, so I'm sure the'll let you take you measurements

Matthijs

Hi Gary!

Here in Brazil, even the armed forces act like this!

I asked Brazilian Navy about the colors of ours AAV7 and never get any answer.

So, I need to try some pics and "guess" the correct colors.

Cheers!

Marco

Gary if you ever see "The Garrison" on manoeuvres stop and ask away, our lot are always happy to help if they can. It is some time away but they will be at Arnhem Holland for Operation Market Garden in September 2014. We have period artillery and suitable towing vehicles plus motorcycles and support vehicles.

Hi Gary
I think you just happen to meet all the wrong people in the world at the the same time! I've asked tons of "nerdy" questions in different museums all over, and the worst answer I've ever got was a very polite; "No Sir, you may not go inside the vehicle". I even got permission to climp onto some vehicles at the Panzer museum in Munster in Germany for some pictures I needed. And for judging ALL the American people as complete is a little hasty. I have met a lot of US service men and museum staffs, who all were very helpfull and friendly, so just keep trying, and I'm pretty sure you'll meet some too.
Best regards
Jacob

Hi, Gary! I agree with you. My buddies and I used to go to the Annual D-Day event at the Mid Atlantic Air Museum near Reading, PA. Since my amputation of the right leg below the knee in January of 2010, I haven't been. I see the lack of courtesy and helpfulness wherever I go, especially with the younger folks. NO SOCIAL SKILLS. For example, I see perfectly able, lazy individuals park their vehicles in the "Handicapped Parking Areas" lots of times, but I'm not going to go on and on about it. Suffice it to say that it's a different world...

PS- I wanted to mention that at the Mid Atlantic Air Museum, the re-enactors and people with vehicles and exhibits were very helpful and had no problems answering questions or letting us take photos. In fact, they welcomed our interest. But, that's right in the heart of the Amish-country in Pennsylvania, where EVERYBODY is friendly. The local food is terrific, too!

I should clarify...I'm talking about private owners/collectors..NOT museums or veterans groups. To make it worse, some of these people I've actually known for many years..and then I get treated like that? Way NOT cool.

Gary;
I agree with you there are some choice nimrods out there. Anytime you deal with anything "geeky" there is always the couple of guys who want to use there tiny amount of insignificant knowledge as a weapon to "right the wrongs" that were inflicted upon them. I had this happen once when I was a kid, even my dad thought the guy was a douche and told me not to worry about it. Read through the threads here there are plenty of guys who will tell you, in a not so constructively criticizing way, what you have done completely wrong. Don't worry about them, they have their own issues. On the converse, there are plenty of great people here who are encouraging and very constructive in their feedback and even criticism, and they usually offer up some praise to balance things out. The vehicle guys the same. When I worked in film we used to deal with a couple of brothers that owned many old tracks and trucks. They laid down a standing offer to let me take anything our for a drive when ever I wanted to come up to the ranch. Pretty cool. So if these guys are people you have known for years, time to make some new friends and not let them get to you. Besides, Frenchy probably has all the pictures you need on quick reference. Hope the day gets better. Cheers.

Gary, know what you mean,that's why I quit model railroading. A group around here was just like that they were happy to talk but did not get into details unless you did it there way.They would not accept any new ideas.Very frustrating.If you need ant info I am home all the time and would be happy to research any thing for you. My background was auto technician for 30 years.
so many a==holes, not much ammo.

Dave Aarons

I'll specify the dilemma which has triggered all this:
The Dragon Models M16 AA track.
There is a problem. There's 4 positions to strap 4 "tombstone" drum .50 mags into the rear corners of the armor body. But the pieces don't fit.
Either Dragon made the mags too tall, or the side walls of the 'track too short inside from floor to rim. Those mags, on the tracks which had them, fit neatly against the walls strapped down and under the rim of the armor. All I need is the H-W-D of a tombstone mag, and the distance from floor to under that rim. That's it. 5 minutes with a tape measure and it's done.

Would this help ?

http://1919a4.com/showthread.php?16923-tombstone-drums

H.P.

Actually yes! This answers one key question and unfortunately it's bad news...this means the tombstone mags in the Dragon kit are in fact..CORRECT. Uh oh....
I MIGHT have a cooperative M16 'track owner getting back to me..he's up in the MVPA as the organization archivist apparently and owns an M16A1..this is not the same rear body though. He's trying to convince another guy with an M16 to go out to the garage with a tape measure...
Thanks Frenchy, that helps!

We know this: The tombstone mags are 21.5 inches high. The Dragon models mags are .615 high...X35 that makes 21.52, close enough anywhere.

Measuring the inside of the rear compartment, we got big trouble..the space between floor and top rim of the armor is only .590. x35 that's 20.65"...WRONG by just under an inch for the mags to fit correctly. The obvious is, Dragon got the measurement wrong and the walls are too short. This is bad.

Sorry, this made me LOL. Your threshold for horrified seems a tad low, but your hyperbole is running 5-by-5.

As a veteran, an ex Tanker, a WW2 collector and military vehicle owner, I do not expect to be treated like a pesky 10 yr old because I'm building a plastic model. "Go away sonny, yer buggin me" is not an acceptable response. This is not a group of people I expect to get belittled by, since I am "one of them". I'm supposed to be "in the club". It's not hype. Had this exchange happened to my face, I'd have knocked someone out cold.

Check your PMs as I sent you a possible solution to your problem...

Good luck on resolving the issue

John

In my case I got no help at all. So I simply became a member of the museum vols and was then was able to measure anything I wanted.

Was not very happy with the fellow because of it but I guess he felt he had other REAL work to do.

I think it probably happens all the time.

Only very rarely do I have a falling out with someone in the know. I'm lucky enough to have several ex-servicemen, to converse with on a daily basis. I do remember one, in my hometown, that had an original kubelwagen. Only the paint had been retouched. Actually, the tires weren't original. He very much enjoyed the conversation and questions.
Actually, my worst experience is trying to get information from museums. Usually, my questions get shuffled off to the dust bin. I find it much better to visit the museum and ask as many questions as I can. It's harder to dismiss a person rather than a letter.

Just a thought, but are these 'collectors' and so forth the same ones who participate in 'living history' exhibits? While it may not be the best way to get precise measurements on specific vehicles, I found that re-enactors have often been helpful, friendly, and pretty knowledgeable too at times.

While not always able to help due to legal or personal resources reasons I always found the german museeums to be at least polite and willing to answer polite (e)mails with full length answers. And willing to bend the rules as much as possible if one asks nicely.

I was at that museum for a day. Only sober that one day while visiting Belgium and Germany. At least my French is waaaaaay better than my German. Donne moi une autre biere SVP...

I found that it helps to build a relationship with people first. (Sounds like you might have.) Do you have anything you could provide them? Have you offered?

One thing to consider, how many times have you gone to these people asking for five minutes of work on their part? How long did you give them to respond? Are their vehicles readily accessible rather than tarped up in the back barn or in a storage center a half an hour away? Did you give them a good definition of the task, like a marked-up picture of what you wanted measured?

KL

You obviously don't have a clear overview Kurt. that's ok. Some of these guys i've had relationships for years..some no, but there's supposed to be something of a "brotherhood" established once you get a Form DD214 and it has 19E in the MOS line..The real isue isn't personal here, it has EVERYTHING to do with one thing: Plastic Models. In their eyes, toys. THAT'S where the attitude comes from.

If you come to germany:

Contact german Armorama members
Have them translate your orders

:)

Well, some people get so annoying with their endless requests for help and anger over their perceived slights that even their real brothers will avoid them.

KL