This is a question that I ponder every couple of years - and I wanted to pose it to this group because of the many different levels of model experience here.

If we, as a group, decided to all build the same model (like a M4A1 Medium Tank) and 12 people jumped in - you'd get 12 different looking M4A1 models. When you look at another modeler's miniature - what is it that you see and like about it? What is it that you see and don't particularly care for?

Jim

A couple of things that turn me off are unrealistic weathering and the other is people putting stowed equipment on in places that they would last for a moment. When putting bags on, think about the tank going through a grove of trees or hedgerow. Branches smacking againt the hull & turret, any bag hung in some places would get tore off and lost.

Good question truck!

When I look at someone elses work it's the attention to detail that I'm usually drawn to. Since I just started armor modeling I'm really struck by the detail you can add to some of these tanks. I like to see what extra's they've added like tarps, tent rolls, jerrycans, etc., etc., etc. I'm also particularly drawn to weathering, painting and battle/wear and tear damage.

Since I've just started armor I've kinda started to see myself paying more attention to diorama's. If I did anything like that it would be way down the road after gaining more experience.

Rob,

Is that like the Verlinden phenomenon of suspending kitbags on the side of a vehicle without any visible means of support - or more like just hanging gear off handrails and any other piece of a tanks?

Weathering too - like too heavy a coat of mud or not enough?

Jim

Tin - I have some pet peeves too. Current modeling trend is extreme weathering made famous by Spanish modelers and Japanese modeling. Rob touched on weathering too in his post above. Extreme weathering (copious amounts of ruste and paint flaking) isn't appropriate for the subject or time period of the model it's displayed on - but is current vogue with modelers regardless of photographic evidence to the contrary. The same applies to drybrushing, but Uncle Frankie started that technique so long ago, some modelers are reticent to do anything else. I loath the 'frosted flake' look.

I'm not a particular fan of battle-damage either - only because for the most part it isn't done convincingly. I select and build the vehicles I do because I see the beauty of the mechanical design. Though heavy use and battle-damage is appropriate for some vehicles and settings, I choose not to with my subjects unless in a diorama setting. I like to preserve the original lines of the ordnance.

Jim

Rob, being the experienced tanker you are (no sarcasm intended) perhaps you could put together an article about external stowage on tanks and where things should be realistically located and what equipment you might find stowed externally.

I second that Tin!

Jim

At first I wasn't going to post a reply here. But I thought what the heck. Might get hung, but what the heck.
I have a peeve with this entire topic.
Who is to say what is good or bad about any model? Who is to say that the particular model in question has not just come through a sloppy muddy field just before the photo, or in this case a 3D tangible picture was snapped? Who is to say that those bags or tents or stowage pieces don't belong there or there, when the modelers idea when building it said "I'll build this one to represent that M___ just hanging out in the rear echelon?" Or if it was the authors idea as a "what if"?
The most wonderful thing about model building is the individuality that we all have and use to apply to our models. I personally think each one (model)is a representation of our own creativity.
Thats not to say we cannot learn different techniques from one another. We learn as we grow along with the art. After all, it's the other's techniques we are most interested in. Not too many take an interest in how another did something wrong, according to their own reason.
It seems to take away from the "fun" of this hobby, and turns it into a competition of sorts, which, lets face it, is someone's opinion of what" they" think.
This is probably why I never did and never will compete in any form of art. There are so many variables and differing opinions that it is impossible to guage what one considers good or bad.
Leisure time is best used building models.
Just my opinion.

I like the tank stowage Idea also (although I hate to ask him and a couple of the other guys who contribute so much to do more). I have been looking a a lot of photos of the sherman, both real life and built models. I look and the real life photos to see how it should look and built kits for finishing ideas, both what to do and not to do. I like to look and the kits and figure out how they did certain effects being new to the area. I have noticed that hardly any of the kits look alike. Some seem to have a semi-gloss finish with the metal coming through the paint and others have a real flat finish. Honestly I don't know which is right or wrong, or maybe they are both right for the time period. Anyway I think they would all look different if we all did the same kit just because all the different finished products that use different finish methods I have seen.

I agree with the lot of you!!

I personally want someone to be able to look at my models and think "did that person just move, or is this just a model..." I like the reality look. I enjoy looking at the work others have done and enjoying their representation or idea.

But I agree with Kencelot...who is to say Aerosmith is better or worse than Mozart? Or Miro vs. Echer? Etc., etc...

Ken, I totally see your point and respect it. I am so new and know so little about armor that anything I do is for either just plain fun or honing of skills that I severly lack. I've looked at a couple of reference pics for the two armor pieces I've done but am in no way trying to make them accurate. I'm just trying to make something that looks half-way decent when sitting on my desk after completion.

Jim, I understand your point about the extreme weathering as well. Some of those types of models do seem to look a little unrealistic unless it was a piece of knocked-out armor that's been sitting a while or something like that.

Please, please, please don't misunderstand me. I guess it's one of those triggers thatthat gets me going on a tangent. I just get crazy when anything in the form of a judgement comes into play with a hobby.
I do agree Gun, that if 12 or even 100 people set out to build the same kit, each one would be different.
Realism has it's place here too. Where accuracy is what makes or breaks the kit which it is to represent the actual piece of hardware used in an actual time or place.

Okay, I think I've said enough.

Excellent comment!

Did I say something? I hear nothing.... I say nothing... hehe

Some figure making company should make a Sgt. Shultz.

Jim

Maybe I should begin posting as Jim L... :-)

Didn't mean to open a can of worms here with a simple question. Don't mean to imply that someone, somehow, knows what's "best" and "worst" in modeling technique. And, don't mean to raise hackles.

Just as there are 100 ways to paint OD Green, there will be 100 different approaches to modeling. Out of everything I've learned about the hobby and people thus far is that though we tend to carry out the bulk of modeling solo but, we all come together and seek acceptance from our peers - 20 year veterans or 20-day newcomers or returning sprue-benders.

Just as I think it's great to lend support to another modeler when he or she shows their latest work - so is it great to have a forum to ask another modeler why they did something in finishing a model that you might not have considered before, or don't particularly find appropriate - without it becoming a question of "who's right and who's wrong".

I think the answer to the original question is I like what I see in another modeler's work because it inspires me to consider my own in a fresh light. It doesn't matter, ultimately, whether or not I like the subject matter, execution, or presentation, because I'm just sharing in the joy of the hobby.

Jim Lewis

Jim L,

I don't think this is a can of worms, I think this all might be paraphrased in "build what you like for yourself"

BUT on the other hand I do think it is informative to find out what others like/dislike for inspirational aspects...

Okay, thanks Brian, then I don't feel this is a can of worms for you. Your response made me think, and I agree, that one should build what they like - for themselves.

A little personal history: I am still a member of IPMS/USA, though I have chosen against being too active in the local hobby scene for the past few years. I've judge armor on the National Level, since 1994 - and this experience culminated in 1998 where I was the Co-Chairman and Contest Director for the IPMS/USA National Convention in Santa Clara. That, to say, was an experience that led to me leaving all of that behind to rediscover the joy of this hobby again.

It is true that one should build what they like, the way they like it, for themselves. Is there value to a 'contest' between modelers of this mindset? Or, is a 'contest' between modelers of this mindset contradictory?

Jim Lewis

Oh...lol...I thought he was confusing one of us with Rob's comments about weathering. Here I was the one who was confused.

Jim - You can be known as Jim and I will go by the moniker "Jim - The Great Webmaster"

I may call you Gunnie though if you don't mind. I've always liked that nickname.

Now to get serious. I thought your original question was valid. Everyone obviously locks on to the thing that they like most about a scale model and I think you just wanted to know what those things are.

For me I appricate the effect when in a dio (for instance) you have to look twice to see if it's a real photo or a model. Several of Werner's dios did this to me when I was going through trying to categorize them. In fact I mistakenly took his Tatra photos (of the real vehicle) for a diorama! Now that's a compliment (your welcome again Werner).

Figures are a real sticking point though. Something I was never that good with so I can understand why some modelers stay clear of them.
But a good figure can really add life to a model or dio.

Jim

Looks like I stirred up a hornet's nest with my reply.

Let me clarify my weathering comment. Mud is not so much the issue as rust. I've lived on tanks that had so much mud on them that the tank could have been painted pink and no one would have known.

Rust on the other hand, is usually very over done. I mean for tanks in current use. This comment doesn't apply to knocked out tanks. Again I have spent months at a time living on a tank (I didn't spend a night in an Army tent until I had 7 yrs in and was a company commander). I've gone through some of the nastiest weather available in Germany and our vehicles never were as rusty as some of the ones I've seen modeled. That includes the old M60A3s and newer M1A1s. Only a tank that has been sitting in a motor pool for a long weekend (or a National Guard tank between drills) AND if it had rained, then there may be some rust on the tracks. That is, until the vehicle moved, then the rust would have worn off against the concrete or ground surface. And no silver tracks while I'm ranting!

I've also seen kits that have binoculars, rifles, gas masks, canteens, rucksacks, etc. hanging off the tank down by the engine intakes, off the fenders dangling by the tracks, just about anywhere where they could easily be ripped off or grabbed by moving parts. Most of the personal gear is stored on the turret or in the turret, tightly strapped or stuffed in place so it doesn't get lost. Combat essential gear is kept close at hand. Binos, weapons, gas masks, map cases are generally safeguarded from the effects of the weather. Don't get me wrong; I have seen (and been on) HMMWVs loaded up like gypsy wagons with rucks and duffle bags hanging off the side racks.
Also people need to remember that some tanks have 3, 4 or 5 man crews and dozens of duffles and rucks is a little much. Main gun ammo is also not normally stored on the outside of tanks. Machine gun ammo is though.

I see what you are getting at. I fly in the Mighty P-3 Orion. I was asked one day to check out some guy's model he had made of the P-3, the Hasagawa kit with VP-40 markings. This guy was a friend of my girlfriend.

He had it diorama'd on a nice piece of modeled concrete with the aircraft's tiedowns all chained down to the ground. I thought, "Very detailed, very nice! [Where did he get the cool chains?]" I then checked it out further...

He had significant rust build up modeled in the wheelwells and some flakes of rust modeled on the propellers. The underbelly was heavily washed with specks of mud. He also had the wing roots out to the engines silvered as if the paint was worn away from feet and the engines were again heavily washed an oily brown.

And he sat there and said, "Well??"

I told him I thought it was a bit overdone on the weathering detail, but he swore he had seen a photo and modeled from that photo. He was so certain and so convinced he had done right, that I just told him it was great.

This was an extreme case weathering on a subject that in actuality sees very little chance of weathering. Perhaps an oil leak from the engines, definately some exhaust stains. But then again, our new paint jobs (new color Gull Gray) we are slowly receiving does away with exhaust stains because of the glossiness of the paint. The carbon buildup can now be effectively wiped away by maintainers.

But mud? Rust on the propellers? No way. But he had "seen a photo" and stuck to it.

Lucas

I should have added the same to my comments. Even if something is too heavily weathered or the storage is unrealistic, I will tell the builder it looks great, etc. My modeling skills are not the greatest, so who am I to criticize theirs. Tact is one of the leadership qualities that is lacking in today's world.

:-) Sure - I'd like to be tagged Gunnie!

Thanks Jim

Jim

Whew - the road was getting a little bumpy there but Thanks Guys! That's what I was looking for - what you you really key on when you look at a miniature.

I like figures, and can do them well, but I never put them on my miniatures - if you haven't noticed. I think they spoil the impression I'm trying to create It's strange, but I'll go to the Nth Degree to model equipment and stuff for the miniature, but won't cut the plastic for a figure. A phobia I guess. I like to talk to tankers who drove or commanded a particular vehicle I want to model, and while I'm picturing what they're saying I don't picture the figure(s). I can smell the fuel, feel the cramped, uncomfortable, painful, cold interiors - but just don't get the picture of the man in middle of the mix.

Gunnie

I admire the same thing in vehicles and figures: a consistently high level of detail throughout the model. It implies a level of patience and persistence which I am trying to achieve in my approach to the hobby. (Though I'm afraid I have a long way to go!).

One of my pet peeves is a diorama where the story bludgeons you over the head. Every diorama should tell a story, but it should emerge from the "mise en place," not the other way around. This makes up for the fact that the diorama is static; the mind's attempt to comprehend the scene supplies the missing action.

-Neil

I always liked the human element in a model display or diorama. I never care for walk around photos of tanks or aircraft. But a photo of a tank with people on it or it. Makes me think about what it must of been like to be there. Was it cold, was it morning, were they going into action or coming from it. To me a vehicle is lifeless without the people.
Even when I built mostly 1/72 aircraft I always had a figure inside or standing outside of the aircraft. I just like the human part of the machine the best.
And I still love Gun Truck's photos in the Gallery section. It's fantastic work! But when I build I see the human first.