Hi All,

I have an idea to build a diorama depicting a WWII German submarine launch that I would like some advice on. My plan is to place a sub (probably Bronco's Seehund) on a Plattformwagen SSys flatbed railcar (either by Trumpeter, LZ Models, or Dragon, all of which have produced their own version), which in turn would be placed on a base depicting a dock (similar to Italeri's long dock [which has rails built into it], or I may try scratch building on myself) to show a scene of preparing to offload the sub in preparation for launch.

My question for you basically concern the width/gauge of the tracks on the Italeri dock base and their compatibility with the wheels on the Trumpeter, LZ Models or Dragon flatbed railcars.

Does anyone have any of these kits, and if so, what is the gauge? I would appreciate the inner and outer widths of the tracks and wheels if you could provide them (in mm). Even if you only have one of these sets, I would appreciate any info you could provide me with.

Thanks in advance for your help on this guys. This build is still very much in the concept stage and any info you can send my way now will no doubt help me out down the track.

Cheers.

Hi Jason
The only experience I have is with Trumpeter and Dragon. If building Dragon vehicles to be used on Trumpeter tracks, you need to make sure the wheel base is as wide as possible. If you build a Dragon vehicle as normal with all centered, the car will not be very stabile on the Trumpeter tracks ...its a fraction too narrow. Have no experience of Italeri or LZ tracks wheel bases.

I am curious if you can mix the Dragon and Trumpeter train cars together.
I am in the planning stages of a "small" train with both Dragon and Trumpeter cars.

Mike

Thanks for the info Frank. I'm sure that will come in handy. I see that you are building the WR-360 engine (a very clean build BTW) ... could I trouble you for the dimensions, both inner and outer of the tracks?

Given the difference in the gauges of the Dragon and Trumpeter railcars, I think that it will be unlikely that either will be compatible with the tracks set into Italeri's long dock. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, it looks as though I might need to scratch-build a base, using the tracks which come with the Trumpeter kit.

@ Mike. In my opinion Yes they can be used together. Theres only 1-2mm difference in the tracks widths. Adjust Dragon as wide as they go, and they will be very close.

@ Jason. I´ll reply tomorrw with the widthes (inner and outer) of the Trumpeter track. I have Dragon track, but never built it, as I chose to go with Trumpeter tracks as I have more and its more accessable for me to buy more.

Jason - even if the kit gauge doesn't fit the Italieri rails, all you would need to do is cut new axles of the right length from metal or even styrene rod. Charles

Trumpeter outside width: 48.2mm
Trumpeter inside width: 44.2mm

Frank - I'm a bit surprised at those numbers, as neither of them sounds like track gauge, which is the common method of measuring / specifying the width between the rails. Charles

From your diagram, the "track guage" is 44.2mm. The outside of this same area is 48.2mm. I dont know enough about gauges and trains to know what is right or wrong, but these widthes are fixed in the Trumpeter track build up. The plates are moulded in place on the "wooden" beams, and the rail is fed in.

Thanks for the info. Standard gauge (1435mm) scales out to exactly 41mm in 1:35, while the 44.2 is close to Russian gauge (1520mm, or 43.4mm in 1:35). I would have thought they'd be closer to scale.

Seems like this would be one detail in which the manufactures would be "spot on" oh?? Oh we'll.

Frank - thanks for that mate. That helps me out a lot.

Charles - thanks for the tip on the axles; I may need to do that.

From one of the other threads I have since learned that the gauge of the tracks built into the Italeri Long Dock are very close to standard gauge (41mm), so it seems that the Trumpeter rail cars will not fit without modification. So at this stage it looks as though I am either going to need to chop the axles down, or return to the drawing board and see what I can come up with in terms of scratch building a base (which may prove to be much more fun!).

Thanks again for he help guys. I'll be sure to give you an update once I decide what I want to do with this - oh, and once I finally finish all of the builds currently on my workbench.

What about running a saw once (or several times) down through the center of the ties, re-gluing the group of now shorter ties together and in that way "narrowing" the gauge of the track.

I know it seems like a lot but I believe it is easier than it sounds. With lite sanding and repainting of the ties and the addition of gravel I think the patch would show very little.

Jason - I have an update for you.

Out of curiosity I opened my Trumpeter low-side gondola and temporarily built up an axle. Even if Trumpeter's track is 44.2 mm, the track gauge on their axles looks to be just over 41 mm. It's hard to measure precisely due to the curved section between the tread and the flange - see the diagram.



Their wheels are two part, and are located on the axle by a wider central section / flange. If you wanted a wider gauge, just glue them further out on the axle; for narrower, you would need to file a bit from the thicker section so you could slide them in.



One note - there must be enough axle exposed on the end to fit securely into the journal (unless you're willing to permanently glue them), which is what the axles rotate in. If for any reason you decide to gauge your axles at 44.2, then you might need to buy new axle stock and possibly modify wagon construction to allow more room between the the insides of the journals.

I plan to make my stock operational, but using 32mm scale (AKA Scale 1, with 44.5 mm track gauge), so will no doubt need to reposition my journals, and will likely insert brass bushings. I will naturally be using 1:32 turned wheels on brass axles - probably pointed at the ends.

Michael - You would only need to saw once, preferably at the exact center. Then you could very carefully sand each side until you get the desired track gauge. However, even though these are ostensibly static models, you would want to measure often and be precise to ensure that you maintain strictly parallel rails - for visual reasons if nothing else.

I don't encourage doing this, but generally suggest establishing your preferred track gauge first, and then adjusting each car so that it tracks correctly. After all - if a real railroad receives a new car with the axles out of gauge, they make the manufacturer fix it vs. realigning all their track.

Jason - looking at the photo again, I realized that a far easier way to narrow the guage (should you want / need to) is simply sanding a little off the inside of the wheel, but you need to stop before removing so much that the wheel no longer stops at the axle flange.

It sounds like this is a far future project, but unless you really like scratchbuilding I would go with the Italeri kit unless you want more than a yard / meter of track. Of course it requires skillful finishing to look good (a la the box "art"), but I think it would take a lot of material and work to create something as appealing, and then you might want to buy some of the accessories that are included. You might also get the section with steps, which provides visual variety and is useful for tying up dingys, etc.

Michael - thanks for the tip mate, although the idea I have is to have the rails set into the pavement without using the sleepers/ties (see pics of Italeri dock below to see what I am talking about).





Charles - you are proving to be a wealth of information! Thanks again for your help and ideas. You are right to think that this build is still a while off. As I said in a previous post, I still need to finish off a couple of current builds before I even think to get started on this one. One of these current projects is a small diorama depicting a scene of WW2 Normandy (although I am still yet to decide what to do with it once the base is finished - see thread HERE). While this is my first dio attempt, I am quite enjoying the exercise. It is giving me an opportunity to try out and learn new techniques used so well by others here on the boards. All in all, it has been a lot of fun so far. Depending on how I feel about it when I am finished, I may yet decide to scratch-build the dock as well. While the Italeri sets do look good, the long dock + the section with stairs will likely set me back around $100, on top of the cost of the sub, the railcar, figures, and other odds and ends. And seeing as I am still only very new to modelling, the cost of all of the parts will in all probability exceed the quality of the what I am able to do with them.

Either way, whatever I decide to do with this project (whenever I get around to building it), I will post progress here on the boards, and will no doubt be picking your brain some more for ideas and suggestions.

Cheers