Hello Gentlemen,
Same old problem....
Every time I use my airbrush to try and do fine lines, the paint "spits" or "catapillars" all over my work. I have tried every technique I know, or have read. I have a Badger patriot arrow brush, and a pretty decent compressor. I shoot Tamiya acrylics mixed with windshield wiper fluid "to the consistency of milk" at a pressure of between 5 and 10 psi. I have recently switched to Vallejo model air straight into the cup thinking that might work, but it clogs easy unless thinned.
What the hell is my problem?!?!
ANY suggestions would help.
Cheers all,
Chris
AFV Painting & Weathering
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why does my airbrush keep "spitting"?
ziggy1
Texas, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 03:33 AM UTC
Blackstoat
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 04:28 AM UTC
Hi mate
I'm a newbie here, but personally I've found air pressure below 10 psi can be too low to atomise the paint. The paint pretty much dribbles out of the nozzle causing spitting.
I'm assuming you've checked for a bent needle and dry paint at the tip?
I'm a newbie here, but personally I've found air pressure below 10 psi can be too low to atomise the paint. The paint pretty much dribbles out of the nozzle causing spitting.
I'm assuming you've checked for a bent needle and dry paint at the tip?
retiredyank
Arkansas, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 07:40 AM UTC
I would recommend spraying 10psi, as a minimum. Excepting large areas, 15psi should be about perfect. I judge this by my makeshift regulator. Another possibility is that you are holding your ab too close to the surface.
ziggy1
Texas, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 08:43 AM UTC
If I get my ab too far away, I don't get the fine lines (tank camo) that I need. It spreads too much. I've even loosened the chuck and pushed the needle all the way forward to lesson the air pressure comming thru.
Cheers all,
Chris
Cheers all,
Chris
Easy_Co
England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 10:30 AM UTC
sounds like the pressure is to low also thin the paint a little more,Ive used Model air and had to thin it a little I also add a drop of their retarder to the paint that stops the drying on the tip.personally I prefer Tamiya just thin it bit more and up your pressure test it on an old kit.hope this helps.
ziggy1
Texas, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 10:43 AM UTC
I'm sorry gentlemen, the more I thin it, the more it runs...!!!
Frustration is NOT the word...ill keep trying.
Thanks for the help gentlemen,
Cheers all,
Chris
Frustration is NOT the word...ill keep trying.
Thanks for the help gentlemen,
Cheers all,
Chris
Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 11:27 AM UTC
Chris spray Tamiya using the thinner made for it and I suspect your problems will be memories in no time, Thinning paint with cheap alternatives which are not designed for the task can result in some unexpected results which make correcting the problem hard to fix. If you use Tamiya paint and its specific thinner you can replicate results and fine tune your methods.
imatanker
Maine, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 11:55 AM UTC
Chris, if your AB has a fluid adjustment knob on it, adjust it so you are putting less paint on per pass. It almost sounds like you are putting on to much paint on at once. Don't get discouraged. It can be a very fussy thing.
ComaBlack
Ontario, Canada
Joined: September 19, 2010
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Joined: September 19, 2010
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 03:52 PM UTC
Second this idea. I have read that Tamiya acrlyc consists of three parts, and their 20A thinner is one of them. You may have more luck with a more compatible thinner.
Blackstoat
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 15, 2012
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Posted: Saturday, August 31, 2013 - 08:20 PM UTC
Exactly how fine are the lines you're trying to spray dude?
SdAufKla
South Carolina, United States
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 01:38 AM UTC
Fine lines require these conditions or factors:
1) The AB tip must be very close to the surface.
2) The paint volume being sprayed must be low.
3) The air pressure must be low.
4) Because the air pressure must be low, the paint viscosity (thickness) must be low.
Now, all four of these conditions must be balanced against each other.
For instance, if you move the AB further away from the surface, you'll need slightly more paint and air pressure. Get too far away, and the low viscosity paint will not provide enough coverage (opacity). Etc, etc, etc.
Very, very fine lines on impermeable surfaces (like plastic models) often require multiple passes to achieve coverage because IF you spray too much paint (volume too high) the surface will not "soak up" the excess (like paper used for illustrations or paper towels on your work bench), and the excess paint will run ("spider" or drips).
(Remember the viscosity must be low so opacity is low and only so much pigment is being delivered to the surface.)
Another factor is how fast the paint dries. Using windshield washer fluid to thin Tamiya paint changes this dramatically. The proprietary Tamiya thinners (X-20A or "yellow cap" lacquer thinner) have good drying properties when you start to do more than just basic spraying work. Faster drying paint allows more opacity to build up on the surface before the surface becomes overloaded and the paint runs.
These two thinners can be substituted by isopropyl alcohol (X-20A) or ordinary lacquer thinners ("yellow" cap), since both of those contain the same main ingredients. But other substitutions are a "science fair" project - maybe they'll work or maybe they won't and maybe they wont work all the time.
(I personally use a 50:50 mix of ordinary lacquer thinner and X-20A and then reduce the Tamiya paints by about 50:50 with this. Exact reduction ratios depend on too many things to list here now. But that thinner will reduce Tamiya paints to spray as fine a line as my AB is capable of. Sometimes when the paint viscosity gets very low - ie very high thinner to paint ratios in the 80-90% range - adding back 5-10% Tamiya Gloss Clear X-22 will help reduce spattering from the AB tip and provide smoother coverage. On the other hand, the X-22 will impart an egg-shell satin finish that must be dealt with later. And so it goes... a "balancing act.")
Finally, you're using a double-action AB which requires some skill and practice to balance the paint volume flow (pulling the trigger back) with the air pressure (pushing the trigger down). Since these are two of the four key factors for fine line spraying, the problem MIGHT not be the paint viscosity or the air compressor settings, but AB operator error.
Remember to PUSH the trigger DOWN first then PULL BACK. If you pull back and open the paint flow all the way before you start the air flow, you'll tend to get splatters and drops immediately. The air should be flowing before the paint so that there is enough air pressure and flow at the tip to atomize the paint as the air flow pulls the paint from the tip.
(Remember that after removing the needle for cleaning, when you replace it, push it gently forward all the way into the tip - with the trigger in the full forward position - before you lock the keeper nut. When the trigger is full forward, the paint flow should be completely closed at the tip.)
You don't have to push the trigger all the way down or pull it all the way back. Doing that is no better than a single action AB. This requires practice and experimentation with paint viscosity and air pressure (although trigger control modulates air pressure too). A lot of painters ignore the trigger to modulate air pressure and just set their air compressors to the desired setting and give the AB full trigger all the time.
Even if this is what you do, you should still push the trigger down first before pulling it back. When you pull it back, you can control the paint volume - none, a little, some, a lot.
Again, some painters ignore this too and simply adjust the paint viscosity to match the air pressure on their compressor at full flow on the AB. This is the same as using a single-action AB, but it will work. You just have to learn the viscosity mixes and air pressure combos for your AB.
The entire process is a "balancing act," though, of the the FOUR factors listed above. A lot of this balancing is what works best for you, starting with how you use the AB, then on to what paints and thinners you use.
Try changing thinners and practice correct trigger control with the double-action AB. Learn to move in close, and the closer you get, the less air pressure and paint volume you'll need. When the paint won't flow any more at that range, reduce (thin) it down a bit more and get closer still. It just takes some practice and getting used to your own AB and paints.
Don't give up, though. It's all a matter of logic and problem solving, but remember, each factor (air pressure, paint volume, paint viscosity, and distance/speed) effects the others and each must be balanced against the all.
HTH,
1) The AB tip must be very close to the surface.
2) The paint volume being sprayed must be low.
3) The air pressure must be low.
4) Because the air pressure must be low, the paint viscosity (thickness) must be low.
Now, all four of these conditions must be balanced against each other.
For instance, if you move the AB further away from the surface, you'll need slightly more paint and air pressure. Get too far away, and the low viscosity paint will not provide enough coverage (opacity). Etc, etc, etc.
Very, very fine lines on impermeable surfaces (like plastic models) often require multiple passes to achieve coverage because IF you spray too much paint (volume too high) the surface will not "soak up" the excess (like paper used for illustrations or paper towels on your work bench), and the excess paint will run ("spider" or drips).
(Remember the viscosity must be low so opacity is low and only so much pigment is being delivered to the surface.)
Another factor is how fast the paint dries. Using windshield washer fluid to thin Tamiya paint changes this dramatically. The proprietary Tamiya thinners (X-20A or "yellow cap" lacquer thinner) have good drying properties when you start to do more than just basic spraying work. Faster drying paint allows more opacity to build up on the surface before the surface becomes overloaded and the paint runs.
These two thinners can be substituted by isopropyl alcohol (X-20A) or ordinary lacquer thinners ("yellow" cap), since both of those contain the same main ingredients. But other substitutions are a "science fair" project - maybe they'll work or maybe they won't and maybe they wont work all the time.
(I personally use a 50:50 mix of ordinary lacquer thinner and X-20A and then reduce the Tamiya paints by about 50:50 with this. Exact reduction ratios depend on too many things to list here now. But that thinner will reduce Tamiya paints to spray as fine a line as my AB is capable of. Sometimes when the paint viscosity gets very low - ie very high thinner to paint ratios in the 80-90% range - adding back 5-10% Tamiya Gloss Clear X-22 will help reduce spattering from the AB tip and provide smoother coverage. On the other hand, the X-22 will impart an egg-shell satin finish that must be dealt with later. And so it goes... a "balancing act.")
Finally, you're using a double-action AB which requires some skill and practice to balance the paint volume flow (pulling the trigger back) with the air pressure (pushing the trigger down). Since these are two of the four key factors for fine line spraying, the problem MIGHT not be the paint viscosity or the air compressor settings, but AB operator error.
Remember to PUSH the trigger DOWN first then PULL BACK. If you pull back and open the paint flow all the way before you start the air flow, you'll tend to get splatters and drops immediately. The air should be flowing before the paint so that there is enough air pressure and flow at the tip to atomize the paint as the air flow pulls the paint from the tip.
(Remember that after removing the needle for cleaning, when you replace it, push it gently forward all the way into the tip - with the trigger in the full forward position - before you lock the keeper nut. When the trigger is full forward, the paint flow should be completely closed at the tip.)
You don't have to push the trigger all the way down or pull it all the way back. Doing that is no better than a single action AB. This requires practice and experimentation with paint viscosity and air pressure (although trigger control modulates air pressure too). A lot of painters ignore the trigger to modulate air pressure and just set their air compressors to the desired setting and give the AB full trigger all the time.
Even if this is what you do, you should still push the trigger down first before pulling it back. When you pull it back, you can control the paint volume - none, a little, some, a lot.
Again, some painters ignore this too and simply adjust the paint viscosity to match the air pressure on their compressor at full flow on the AB. This is the same as using a single-action AB, but it will work. You just have to learn the viscosity mixes and air pressure combos for your AB.
The entire process is a "balancing act," though, of the the FOUR factors listed above. A lot of this balancing is what works best for you, starting with how you use the AB, then on to what paints and thinners you use.
Try changing thinners and practice correct trigger control with the double-action AB. Learn to move in close, and the closer you get, the less air pressure and paint volume you'll need. When the paint won't flow any more at that range, reduce (thin) it down a bit more and get closer still. It just takes some practice and getting used to your own AB and paints.
Don't give up, though. It's all a matter of logic and problem solving, but remember, each factor (air pressure, paint volume, paint viscosity, and distance/speed) effects the others and each must be balanced against the all.
HTH,
orangelion03
California, United States
Joined: March 09, 2013
KitMaker: 176 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 02:02 AM UTC
Tamiya 20A good, Tamiya Lacquer Thinner better. Now this works for me here in coastal SoCal...humid Texas may be different. Pencil-line thin flow.
As others suggested, take a real good look at your needle and nozzle under a lupe or other high magnification to make sure needle is centered and parts undamaged. Quality of the finish/machining on the parts too...every now and then, a bad or rough part gets through to assembly.
Good luck!
As others suggested, take a real good look at your needle and nozzle under a lupe or other high magnification to make sure needle is centered and parts undamaged. Quality of the finish/machining on the parts too...every now and then, a bad or rough part gets through to assembly.
Good luck!
WARCLOUD
Jihocesky Kraj, Czech Republic
Joined: March 31, 2012
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 03:32 AM UTC
Air brushes require practice to master. They can be fussy finnicky things. I use Badger exclusively after filling a parts drawer with Paasche corpses over the past 20 years.
I agree with Darren, use the recommended materials in their correct applications, or all bets are off. I don't use acrylics at all, only Testors enamels (petroleum based traditional Enamels) and simply never get any problems. I use double action bottom feed Badgers and never pre-set any flow rate..I use the "manual" mode always, controlling both air flow and paint feed with my trigger finger. My air pressure is never above 15-18psi for camo patterns and I use a water trap always. It kinda sounds to me like you're trying to pre-set a fixed paint flow rate and just push the trigger and paint, but this very rarely works well. Even though I've used airbrushes for 4 decades I still have test after test on paper and scrap parts before I commit to the model, until it's sorted out and ready. "spitting" sounds like paint too thick or pressure too low, or incompatible thinner gumming up the paint, or too much paint flow pre set with the needle. Of course all this assumes you start with a condition of absolutely spotless inside and out with your AB.
I would certainly recommend the correct thinners first, and lots of freehand practice on scrap plastic or glossy paper to find your "sweet spot".
I agree with Darren, use the recommended materials in their correct applications, or all bets are off. I don't use acrylics at all, only Testors enamels (petroleum based traditional Enamels) and simply never get any problems. I use double action bottom feed Badgers and never pre-set any flow rate..I use the "manual" mode always, controlling both air flow and paint feed with my trigger finger. My air pressure is never above 15-18psi for camo patterns and I use a water trap always. It kinda sounds to me like you're trying to pre-set a fixed paint flow rate and just push the trigger and paint, but this very rarely works well. Even though I've used airbrushes for 4 decades I still have test after test on paper and scrap parts before I commit to the model, until it's sorted out and ready. "spitting" sounds like paint too thick or pressure too low, or incompatible thinner gumming up the paint, or too much paint flow pre set with the needle. Of course all this assumes you start with a condition of absolutely spotless inside and out with your AB.
I would certainly recommend the correct thinners first, and lots of freehand practice on scrap plastic or glossy paper to find your "sweet spot".
ziggy1
Texas, United States
Joined: July 21, 2005
KitMaker: 248 posts
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 04:04 AM UTC
thank you for all your help gentlemen.
I am fix'n to go in the room and try to body check this bastard one more time. Ill let you know how it goes.
wish me luck...
cheers all
-chris
I am fix'n to go in the room and try to body check this bastard one more time. Ill let you know how it goes.
wish me luck...
cheers all
-chris
wychdoctor92394
California, United States
Joined: July 07, 2013
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Posted: Sunday, September 01, 2013 - 04:54 AM UTC
Make sure you have no lumps in the paint in the cup. Stir it every third pass, with the A/B....
chumpo
United States
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Posted: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - 10:48 AM UTC
So what did you find out ?
ziggy1
Texas, United States
Joined: July 21, 2005
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Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 - 10:17 AM UTC
thanks for all your help gentlemen, I am trying all avenues right now. now with the valejo model air, should that be thinned with Tamiya thinner as well?
-chris
-chris
Posted: Friday, September 06, 2013 - 10:31 AM UTC
No......Vallejo & Tamiya are not based on the same chemistry.
The best thinner for Vallejo is Vallejo airbrush thinner.
Cheers,
Joe
The best thinner for Vallejo is Vallejo airbrush thinner.
Cheers,
Joe
StueyJ
Australia
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2013 - 01:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Fine lines require these conditions or factors:
1) The AB tip must be very close to the surface.
2) The paint volume being sprayed must be low.
3) The air pressure must be low.
4) Because the air pressure must be low, the paint viscosity (thickness) must be low.
Now, all four of these conditions must be balanced against each other.
For instance, if you move the AB further away from the surface, you'll need slightly more paint and air pressure. Get too far away, and the low viscosity paint will not provide enough coverage (opacity). Etc, etc, etc.
Very, very fine lines on impermeable surfaces (like plastic models) often require multiple passes to achieve coverage because IF you spray too much paint (volume too high) the surface will not "soak up" the excess (like paper used for illustrations or paper towels on your work bench), and the excess paint will run ("spider" or drips).
(Remember the viscosity must be low so opacity is low and only so much pigment is being delivered to the surface.)
Another factor is how fast the paint dries. Using windshield washer fluid to thin Tamiya paint changes this dramatically. The proprietary Tamiya thinners (X-20A or "yellow cap" lacquer thinner) have good drying properties when you start to do more than just basic spraying work. Faster drying paint allows more opacity to build up on the surface before the surface becomes overloaded and the paint runs.
These two thinners can be substituted by isopropyl alcohol (X-20A) or ordinary lacquer thinners ("yellow" cap), since both of those contain the same main ingredients. But other substitutions are a "science fair" project - maybe they'll work or maybe they won't and maybe they wont work all the time.
(I personally use a 50:50 mix of ordinary lacquer thinner and X-20A and then reduce the Tamiya paints by about 50:50 with this. Exact reduction ratios depend on too many things to list here now. But that thinner will reduce Tamiya paints to spray as fine a line as my AB is capable of. Sometimes when the paint viscosity gets very low - ie very high thinner to paint ratios in the 80-90% range - adding back 5-10% Tamiya Gloss Clear X-22 will help reduce spattering from the AB tip and provide smoother coverage. On the other hand, the X-22 will impart an egg-shell satin finish that must be dealt with later. And so it goes... a "balancing act.")
Finally, you're using a double-action AB which requires some skill and practice to balance the paint volume flow (pulling the trigger back) with the air pressure (pushing the trigger down). Since these are two of the four key factors for fine line spraying, the problem MIGHT not be the paint viscosity or the air compressor settings, but AB operator error.
Remember to PUSH the trigger DOWN first then PULL BACK. If you pull back and open the paint flow all the way before you start the air flow, you'll tend to get splatters and drops immediately. The air should be flowing before the paint so that there is enough air pressure and flow at the tip to atomize the paint as the air flow pulls the paint from the tip.
(Remember that after removing the needle for cleaning, when you replace it, push it gently forward all the way into the tip - with the trigger in the full forward position - before you lock the keeper nut. When the trigger is full forward, the paint flow should be completely closed at the tip.)
You don't have to push the trigger all the way down or pull it all the way back. Doing that is no better than a single action AB. This requires practice and experimentation with paint viscosity and air pressure (although trigger control modulates air pressure too). A lot of painters ignore the trigger to modulate air pressure and just set their air compressors to the desired setting and give the AB full trigger all the time.
Even if this is what you do, you should still push the trigger down first before pulling it back. When you pull it back, you can control the paint volume - none, a little, some, a lot.
Again, some painters ignore this too and simply adjust the paint viscosity to match the air pressure on their compressor at full flow on the AB. This is the same as using a single-action AB, but it will work. You just have to learn the viscosity mixes and air pressure combos for your AB.
The entire process is a "balancing act," though, of the the FOUR factors listed above. A lot of this balancing is what works best for you, starting with how you use the AB, then on to what paints and thinners you use.
Try changing thinners and practice correct trigger control with the double-action AB. Learn to move in close, and the closer you get, the less air pressure and paint volume you'll need. When the paint won't flow any more at that range, reduce (thin) it down a bit more and get closer still. It just takes some practice and getting used to your own AB and paints.
Don't give up, though. It's all a matter of logic and problem solving, but remember, each factor (air pressure, paint volume, paint viscosity, and distance/speed) effects the others and each must be balanced against the all.
HTH,
StueyJ
Australia
Joined: July 08, 2013
KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 3 posts
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KitMaker: 3 posts
Armorama: 3 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2013 - 01:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Fine lines require these conditions or factors:
1) The AB tip must be very close to the surface.
2) The paint volume being sprayed must be low.
3) The air pressure must be low.
4) Because the air pressure must be low, the paint viscosity (thickness) must be low.
Now, all four of these conditions must be balanced against each other.
For instance, if you move the AB further away from the surface, you'll need slightly more paint and air pressure. Get too far away, and the low viscosity paint will not provide enough coverage (opacity). Etc, etc, etc.
Very, very fine lines on impermeable surfaces (like plastic models) often require multiple passes to achieve coverage because IF you spray too much paint (volume too high) the surface will not "soak up" the excess (like paper used for illustrations or paper towels on your work bench), and the excess paint will run ("spider" or drips).
(Remember the viscosity must be low so opacity is low and only so much pigment is being delivered to the surface.)
Another factor is how fast the paint dries. Using windshield washer fluid to thin Tamiya paint changes this dramatically. The proprietary Tamiya thinners (X-20A or "yellow cap" lacquer thinner) have good drying properties when you start to do more than just basic spraying work. Faster drying paint allows more opacity to build up on the surface before the surface becomes overloaded and the paint runs.
These two thinners can be substituted by isopropyl alcohol (X-20A) or ordinary lacquer thinners ("yellow" cap), since both of those contain the same main ingredients. But other substitutions are a "science fair" project - maybe they'll work or maybe they won't and maybe they wont work all the time.
(I personally use a 50:50 mix of ordinary lacquer thinner and X-20A and then reduce the Tamiya paints by about 50:50 with this. Exact reduction ratios depend on too many things to list here now. But that thinner will reduce Tamiya paints to spray as fine a line as my AB is capable of. Sometimes when the paint viscosity gets very low - ie very high thinner to paint ratios in the 80-90% range - adding back 5-10% Tamiya Gloss Clear X-22 will help reduce spattering from the AB tip and provide smoother coverage. On the other hand, the X-22 will impart an egg-shell satin finish that must be dealt with later. And so it goes... a "balancing act.")
Finally, you're using a double-action AB which requires some skill and practice to balance the paint volume flow (pulling the trigger back) with the air pressure (pushing the trigger down). Since these are two of the four key factors for fine line spraying, the problem MIGHT not be the paint viscosity or the air compressor settings, but AB operator error.
Remember to PUSH the trigger DOWN first then PULL BACK. If you pull back and open the paint flow all the way before you start the air flow, you'll tend to get splatters and drops immediately. The air should be flowing before the paint so that there is enough air pressure and flow at the tip to atomize the paint as the air flow pulls the paint from the tip.
(Remember that after removing the needle for cleaning, when you replace it, push it gently forward all the way into the tip - with the trigger in the full forward position - before you lock the keeper nut. When the trigger is full forward, the paint flow should be completely closed at the tip.)
You don't have to push the trigger all the way down or pull it all the way back. Doing that is no better than a single action AB. This requires practice and experimentation with paint viscosity and air pressure (although trigger control modulates air pressure too). A lot of painters ignore the trigger to modulate air pressure and just set their air compressors to the desired setting and give the AB full trigger all the time.
Even if this is what you do, you should still push the trigger down first before pulling it back. When you pull it back, you can control the paint volume - none, a little, some, a lot.
Again, some painters ignore this too and simply adjust the paint viscosity to match the air pressure on their compressor at full flow on the AB. This is the same as using a single-action AB, but it will work. You just have to learn the viscosity mixes and air pressure combos for your AB.
The entire process is a "balancing act," though, of the the FOUR factors listed above. A lot of this balancing is what works best for you, starting with how you use the AB, then on to what paints and thinners you use.
Try changing thinners and practice correct trigger control with the double-action AB. Learn to move in close, and the closer you get, the less air pressure and paint volume you'll need. When the paint won't flow any more at that range, reduce (thin) it down a bit more and get closer still. It just takes some practice and getting used to your own AB and paints.
Don't give up, though. It's all a matter of logic and problem solving, but remember, each factor (air pressure, paint volume, paint viscosity, and distance/speed) effects the others and each must be balanced against the all.
HTH,
StueyJ
Australia
Joined: July 08, 2013
KitMaker: 3 posts
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Joined: July 08, 2013
KitMaker: 3 posts
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Posted: Monday, September 23, 2013 - 01:51 AM UTC
Great job on explaining the finer details of the AB.... Thanks...
chumpo
United States
Joined: August 30, 2010
KitMaker: 749 posts
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Joined: August 30, 2010
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Armorama: 521 posts
Posted: Monday, September 23, 2013 - 03:39 AM UTC
So what happened ?