Hi all,

Building the Dragon Sherman III DV in an Italian campaign scheme, 1943.

The paint instructions to this kit are awful (as are the rest of the indtructions actually!).

I think the kit scheme is supposed to be Light Mud/Black disruptive scheme, intrduced April 1943- but I'm not sure. All five options in the kit have the same colour callouts and one of these certainly pre-dates the introduction of light mud!

Would this be the most appropriate scheme for a tank operating in Italy in 1943, or would Desert Pink/black or green be a better choice?

I suppose what I'm asking is how long did older camo schemes hang around on vehicles after new schemes had been introduced/ how quickly were new schemes promulgated?

Sorry to ask- I've done a lot of research, but can't quite find a good answer.

Will

William,

I'll take a stab at trying to answer, but I freely confess that the subject is one that I find confusing and full of contradictions myself.

The best suggestion that I could offer is work off of a photo of the particular vehicle you're building or, barring that, from photos of other vehicles from the same unit at the same time.

However, going by the "official" instructions, the answer would seem to be fairly straightforward - ME GO 693/43 issued in June, 1943, and formally cancelling GO 1650 (which specified Med Theater cammo in effect til then), specified that vehicles were to be painted in "Light Mud" overall with a "disruptor" color applied of "Blue-Black" (first choice) or "Dark Green," "Very Dark Brown," or "Dark Slate" (in that order) as authorized alternates. "Undershading" in white was still to be employed, and vehicles arriving in UK colors were simply to have the Light Mud only painted over the existing paint.

There were actually official instructions issued in April, 1943 that cancelled and superseded ME GO 1650 before the "formal" order dated in June.

This information is taken from Dick Taylor's "Warpaint: Colours and Markings of British Army Vahicles 1903-2003," Volume 2, page 69.

This seems all very clear, HOWEVER... Taylor goes on to cite a couple of pages of official exceptions and deviations that confuse the issue greatly, making it clear (at least to me) that there was no universal system in use by all units at the same time in Sicily or the Italian mainland.

To cite a single example, according to Taylor (pg 82):

"However, not all vehicles photographed in action in Sicily conform to these or previous patterns... . A suggestion made on 16th April 1943 that rather than use these new Blue-Black disruptor based pattens in Sicily, vehicles used for OPERATION HUSKY might be better painted with No. 7 green over either 11B Yellow Pink (ie Desert Pink) or No.5 Gray... ."

There was a "priority of order" for repainting, but presumably, this was based on a unit's resources first - that is, who had enough paint and in what colors to undertake any re-painting.

This order of precidence was (again according to Taylor):

1) Vehicles in "light Yellow" (ie "Light Stone").
2) Vehicles painted in "Desert Pink" with or without... disruptive patterns.
3) Other schemes like MTP 46/4A G3 or SCC2 and vehicles delivered directly from the US or Canada in US OD.
4) ACVs were not to be re-painted until ordered.
5) Those vehicles painted in a base mixed from "5 parts Desert Pink to 1 part Dark Stone" with a disruptive pattern in "dull Dark Green" and then not until ordered.

Taylor goes on to cite the 21 May, 1943 AFHQ order and annex witch includes no less than 16 rules, expansions, instructions, exceptions, and variations to the original instructions. There are simply too many of these to quote here.

Add on top of all of this "Light Mud" was a theater mixed color with no official basis (other than theater instructions).

Another issue that I think has a significant impact (especially for the Canadian units that I'm personally interested in) was that there was a whole month between the end of the Sicilian campaign the invasion of the Italian mainland which was plenty of time for units photographed in Sicily to alter their cammo to either conform with the official instructions or to take advantage of their Sicilian experiences.

If you're looking for the "official" orders and information, I highly recommend Dick Taylor's "Warpaint" series. However, all he can do is offer what was supposed to be done. As to what was actually done... only the photographic record can say. And in B&W, interpretations of that are pretty wide open.

HTH!

William don't feel bad. Try to research the colour used to repaint Spitfires in Malta

Cheers

A good reference for pictures is Concord's British Amour in Sicily and Italy

In this book one can see that Operation Husky(the invasion of Sicily) Sherman III's are typically painted in a two tone camo scheme of Light Mud and Black. In Italy there are quite a few pictures of Sherman III's that have been left in their Sicily paint colours. New replacement Sherman III's entering Italy often are painted in Olive Drab and left so. However, according to the book there is photographic evidence that some units such as the 72nd anti tank regiment of the 6th armoured division equipped with M10 tank destroyers continued to re-paint their vehicles in light mud and black or olive drab.
So it really seems you have some good leeway to paint your model in any of these colours.

Thanks all- very well considered and useful advice. Thanks for the time taken to write such detailed replies! I think the best bet is to find a photo and make a model of a specific tank rather than use the Dragon marking options.

Cheers!

Will