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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
"Tamiya" acrylic help, please?
olfogey
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Nebraska, United States
Joined: October 06, 2013
KitMaker: 35 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 02:14 PM UTC
I am a novice armor builder - (getting ready to start on my first tank kit).

I am familiar with my airbrushing skills, but I am faced with a problem that I did not have before.......in the past, I have used solvent based paints exclusively.

Now, that is no longer possible.........I have "asbestosis", and cannot tolerate any solvent paint fumes at all.

I am going to airbrush acrylics, and have been trying to decide between "Tamiya" & "Vallejo".......it seems that most of the recommendations go to "Tamiya". "Vallejo" seems somewhat popular with the "pros", but a bit of a "love-hate" relationship otherwise.

Since I have never used acrylics before, I'd like to avoid problems and make it as painless as possible......so, I'd like to know any "tips & tricks" for using Tamiya.
I have an Iwata HP-CS, with either .3 or .5 nozzle.
I plan to use their proprietary thinner, but I'd also like to know what experienced users do for retarder, and AB cleaning?? Any tips greatly appreciated.........

chumpo
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 03:53 PM UTC
Tamiya is alcohol / lacquer based and might bother you . Vallejo air is your best choice , but you got to learn how to airbrush it . Or you could try Lifecolor paints same as Vallejo . Play around and see what suits you . Tamiya makes their own acrylic retarder , for Vallejo or Lifecolor you try retarders at AC Moore or other artist supplies , then there are flow enhancers which break up surface tension and lets the acrylic lay down better . you will have to get hands on to get the feel of thinning down the paints .
BBD468
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Texas, United States
Joined: March 08, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 04:20 PM UTC
I agree with Edmund, Tamiya is a great paint, but givin your health issues its not gonna be friendly to ya. I am a die hard Tamiya guy, but i have AK acrylic and Lifecolor acrylic paints as well a some Vallejo. IMHO, they arent as user friendly and take some practice and patience as the are all spray different from each other. You do have an EXCELLENT Airbrush and is one of 2 Iwatas i use. The Eclipse is my work horse AB and there isn anything i havent been able to do with it.

Your just gonna have to experiment and practice alot before applying paint to model. They all 3 give great results when ya figure out how your comfortable with using which ever you choose.

Good luck man and let us know how it goes.

Gary
Grauwolf
#084
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: September 14, 2005
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 04:58 PM UTC
Hello jjeffries,

Whatever paint you decide on, as proposed by the others, I
strongly suggest the use of a respirator, because of your
condition.

Suspended particles from no matter what paint you use will
or may cause you discomfort. Even though water based, the
about mentioned paints all contain acrylic resins.

Cheers,
Joe
mmeier
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Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany
Joined: October 22, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 03:35 AM UTC
Respirator, spray booth with fans and good venting are a must. But then the XF series (Alkohol) based Tamiya paints are still the easiest to handle and very consistent in how much thinner (X20A) they need etc.

The other "big" alternative, Revell Aqua are "works, works not, works somewhat" from one color to another. Sad since they are easy to get and brush nicely. But getting the "right mix" to airbrush is a PITA. When they work (Their RAL6014 does) they are even better than Tamiya.

The Model Color (Brush equivalent to Model Color) is nice but it does not "bite" well even when the model is primed (Tamiya primer). Not sure if the Model Air is better

chumpo
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United States
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 04:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Respirator, spray booth with fans and good venting are a must. But then the XF series (Alkohol) based Tamiya paints are still the easiest to handle and very consistent in how much thinner (X20A) they need etc.

The other "big" alternative, Revell Aqua are "works, works not, works somewhat" from one color to another. Sad since they are easy to get and brush nicely. But getting the "right mix" to airbrush is a PITA. When they work (Their RAL6014 does) they are even better than Tamiya.

The Model Color (Brush equivalent to Model Color) is nice but it does not "bite" well even when the model is primed (Tamiya primer). Not sure if the Model Air is better


. Model color is a pain in the behind to thin down for airbrushing , but it does brush paint real nice . Model air comes a lot thinner , model color is almost like syrup and is real difficult to clean out of an airbrush. It has a feel like the latex house paint . Use the same brand of thinner as the paint . There are people who will swear with windex and all of that good stuff , but stick to the basics until you become a pro at it then experiment . Lastly there's Mr Hobby and Mr Color they have the worst smell but they spray real nice and have a nice selection of primers and fillers . Some people call them Mr Stinky .
SdAufKla
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South Carolina, United States
Joined: May 07, 2010
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 04:26 AM UTC
I use both - Tamiya and Vallejo.

I've found that the Tamiya paints spray beautifully, but are an aggravation to hand-brush. I thin mine for airbrushing with a 50:50 mixture of lacquer thinner and Tamiya X-20A thinner.

Given your health issues, you might not find the Tamiya paints a good alternative to what you've been using. As mentioned above, they are an acrylic, just not a water-based acrylic. They are a solvent-based paint.

The Vallejo Model Colors hand-brush wonderfully, and the Model Air paints spray quite well. For spraying either, I use Vallejo's proprietary airbrush thinner. The Model Air paints are pre-thinned, though, and usually don't need much, if any additional thinners. The Model Color paints will spray just like Model Air if the Vallejo airbrush thinner is used with them.

However, the Vallejo paints are not nearly as "durable" as the Tamiya paints. They require either a clear barrier over them or a bit of clear gloss added to give them a semi-gloss or eggshell finish before they will hold up to my other finishing techniques (oils and other mineral spirits-based materials). You might find that you need to over-spray the Vallejo Model Air or Model Color (thinned with Vallejo airbrush thinner) with Future. Alternatively, you can add Vallejo's Clear Gloss Medium to the other paints to create a semi-gloss finish.

After weathering, you would then have to spray on a clear flat. I can't help you here since I use Testor's Dull Coat (solvent-based, thins with lacquer thinners). Vallejo makes a clear matt, but I've never used it.

So, I do most of my airbrushing with Tamiya (with occasional Floquils) and almost all of my hand-brushing with Vallejo (and a couple of other acrylic brands that are similarly formulated). I only airbrush with Vallejo's when I need a particular color match with some hand-brushed area.

My .02...

Happy modeling!
russamotto
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Utah, United States
Joined: December 14, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 06:02 AM UTC
My kids and I have all asthma and allergies and can't have chemical smells in the house. I will spray Tamiya with careful ventilation, thinned with Windex, but even that is enough for them to complain. I have used Testors acrylic model master paints without issue. They spray well for me but do need a good primer as they scratch easily. I have also used Badger modelair paints, which have no odor. They have a semi-gloss finish which makes decaling and weathering easier, but need a flat coat to hide all that gloss.

For weathering, I use an odorless thinner and oils, but I have also used True Earth weathering products, which are water based, no odor, easy to use and you can touch them up after they have dried. http://www.true-earth.com/en-uk/index.html
Chrisk-K
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Maryland, United States
Joined: January 09, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 01:44 PM UTC
I've used both Tamiya and Vallejo. Tamiya is my choice now except for primers, for which I use Vallejo. IME, Tamiya sprays much better and cleaning is much easier than Vallejo. I use Tamiya thinner or IPA. For cleaning, I use Simple Green or Windex.

Buy a 3M particle respirator ($20-30 at Home Depot) and a spray booth ($80 at Amazon), and no toxic substance will get into your lungs.
easyco69
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: November 03, 2012
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 10:57 PM UTC
build an enclosed spray booth ,use Tamiya & use a respirator. Lifecolor thinner works great with Vallejo regular acrylic paint for airbrushing.Life color paint is quite the chore to get working properly through an airbrush.Vallejo Air is "ok" but take's some getting use to.
Tamiya is the best for airbrushing....use 99.9% alcohol to thin.
I use an enamel based primer , usually "black" . Then use acrylics for top coats.
My 2 cents.
firstcircle
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 19, 2008
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 12:14 AM UTC
Lots of advice and suggestions...!
To go back to your specific questions, Tamiya paints, if thinned correctly with their thinner to a milk like consistency, shouldn't need any additional retarder. Problems can arise with a kind of grainy texture as a result of the paint drying in mid-air, normally only when people have attempted to use straight Isopropyl alcohol as a thinner.

Cleaning the airbrush - I'd suggest using Vallejo's airbrush cleaner, it seems to me to be relatively low-odour and will certainly work. You can probably reduce the amount you use and thus expense, by also using water first, then finishing off with the a/b cleaner.

As others have said, Vallejo would be a much lower odour choice than the Tamiya, and I and others have found Model Air to be fine and easy to use provided you mix in about 1 drop of retarder to every three drops of paint. I use Liquitex, though probably any make will do. If you don't add the retarder you may well find the paint continually dries on the nozzle, blocking it and causing spattering and bubbles. I literally add the retarder in the cup and swizzle it into the paint with a small stiff hog hair brush, I don't bother mixing it up separately in another container.

One thing no-one has addressed is how you might deal with priming, and I don't have any experience of using anything other than automotive primer which is obviously out of the question for you. That might be where Tamiya paints have an advantage as I think Vallejo won't take well to being sprayed on to raw plastic - however, they do make their own primer, which may well be a solution. Anyone?

Vallejo also do water based acrylic weathering products so it is possible to avoid all the oil / enamel stuff when weathering as well.

Whatever you do, as others have said, always wear a proper mask, and preferably do it in a well ventilated space, like in a garage with the door open.



olfogey
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Nebraska, United States
Joined: October 06, 2013
KitMaker: 35 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 06:02 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Lots of advice and suggestions...!
To go back to your specific questions, Tamiya paints, if thinned correctly with their thinner to a milk like consistency, shouldn't need any additional retarder. Problems can arise with a kind of grainy texture as a result of the paint drying in mid-air, normally only when people have attempted to use straight Isopropyl alcohol as a thinner.

Cleaning the airbrush - I'd suggest using Vallejo's airbrush cleaner, it seems to me to be relatively low-odour and will certainly work. You can probably reduce the amount you use and thus expense, by also using water first, then finishing off with the a/b cleaner.

As others have said, Vallejo would be a much lower odour choice than the Tamiya, and I and others have found Model Air to be fine and easy to use provided you mix in about 1 drop of retarder to every three drops of paint. I use Liquitex, though probably any make will do. If you don't add the retarder you may well find the paint continually dries on the nozzle, blocking it and causing spattering and bubbles. I literally add the retarder in the cup and swizzle it into the paint with a small stiff hog hair brush, I don't bother mixing it up separately in another container.

One thing no-one has addressed is how you might deal with priming, and I don't have any experience of using anything other than automotive primer which is obviously out of the question for you. That might be where Tamiya paints have an advantage as I think Vallejo won't take well to being sprayed on to raw plastic - however, they do make their own primer, which may well be a solution. Anyone?

Vallejo also do water based acrylic weathering products so it is possible to avoid all the oil / enamel stuff when weathering as well.

Whatever you do, as others have said, always wear a proper mask, and preferably do it in a well ventilated space, like in a garage with the door open.



"Thank You" for *specific* answers to the questions posed.........that's just what I was looking for.

Also, a "Thank You" to all those that made well meaning suggestions about respirator, paint booth, ventilation, etc.
Those were the FIRST things I took care of, before even considering paint type & brand.
My "service connected" disability is "asbestosis", which *could* eventually turn into "mesothelioma" (sp?) (lung cancer), and kill me.
I probably shouldn't even be trying to do this, but the alternative is to set around, get angry (angrier) and feel sorry for myself, chose not to.
Grauwolf
#084
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: September 14, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 07:23 AM UTC
Hi jjeffries,

I have a very good friend, ex-Canadian navy who suffers from the same condition due to contact with asbestos
on our ships, in his service career. He lost a lung to this condition.

But he modelers avidly and airbrushes constantly and has been
doing it for over 15 years now...since the surgery.
He uses a respirator and good ventilation, He models and paints without incident.

So do not get discouraged in any way, just take the precautions and enjoy many years of modeling!

Cheers,
Joe
olfogey
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Nebraska, United States
Joined: October 06, 2013
KitMaker: 35 posts
Armorama: 20 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 09:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi jjeffries,

I have a very good friend, ex-Canadian navy who suffers from the same condition due to contact with asbestos
on our ships, in his service career. He lost a lung to this condition.

But he modelers avidly and airbrushes constantly and has been
doing it for over 15 years now...since the surgery.
He uses a respirator and good ventilation, He models and paints without incident.

So do not get discouraged in any way, just take the precautions and enjoy many years of modeling!

Cheers,
Joe



Joe:
"Thanks" for your words of support..........my situation, is almost *exactly* the same. I was a "boiler-tender" in the U.S. Navy - where I got my exposure to asbestos.
The REALLY sad part is the way I am being treated by the "VA"......but that's a rant for a different venue
olfogey
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Nebraska, United States
Joined: October 06, 2013
KitMaker: 35 posts
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Posted: Friday, October 11, 2013 - 04:03 AM UTC
One final question, then I'm off to order some paint
.........from the reviews that I have read here, both "Vallejo" Model Air & Model Color can be used for brush painting. It seems some even prefer "Model Air" for this.......my questions, will it work for detail work, etc. on my first build?, and what basic range of colors do I need to start??

Thanks for all the help guys....it's kind of intimidating to "start over" after 50 years with all the new stuff :/
firstcircle
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: November 19, 2008
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Posted: Friday, October 11, 2013 - 04:54 AM UTC
Yes, ironically Model Air is good for brush painting, although I'd say you need to be prepared with some retarder and some air brush cleaner on standby, because as with any acrylic paint, there's a tendency for the paint to dry quickly, including on the brush, and of course unlike solvent based paints, once they start to dry, they're not re- dissolvable (resoluble?) For thinning it is possible just to use water, though the retarder will prove beneficial. Be way of too much retarder as it can stop the paint from setting at all, or at least for an inordinately long time; I think about 25% is what the Liquitex bottle says.
As for which paints, that must depend on what you're thinking of building... I started with the Model Air Extreme Tank Modeling set, which has covered most eventualities for WW2 German, USA, Russian tanks. Not sure of that particular set's availability now, but I know that quite a number of their paint sets are offered via Amazon resellers, so have a browse on that maybe. The sets make it easy in a way, and are a *little * cheaper, maybe...
By the way, back to what I said earlier about primer, not sure that any acrylics are great on plain plastic, so check out the Vallejo primer maybe. As for detail painting, that's probably what these paints are best for when used witha brush, big areas with the airbrush.
olfogey
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Nebraska, United States
Joined: October 06, 2013
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Posted: Friday, October 11, 2013 - 08:09 AM UTC
Thank You again!.........guess it's time to jump in and have a go at this
Jim J. -- "olfogey"
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