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Correct Panther for Kursk
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
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Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 08:46 AM UTC
I'm venturing away from the Africa Campaign and was wondering which Panther would be correct for the Battle of Kursk. I'm thinking I would like to do opposites and have a Panther next to a T-34. Both of these are big steps, for me. I can almost assemble a panzer III and IV, with my eyes closed.
khurasanminiatures
Joined: March 09, 2011
KitMaker: 83 posts
Armorama: 79 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 09:21 AM UTC
That would be the Panther D.
There's even a kit for the earliest Panther Ds --
http://www.hlj.com/product/DRA6164/Mil
There's even a kit for the earliest Panther Ds --
http://www.hlj.com/product/DRA6164/Mil
3rdArmoredVet
Joined: August 28, 2013
KitMaker: 148 posts
Armorama: 108 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 09:23 AM UTC
A Panther D would be your best bet by far. The A model didn't go into production until mid year 1943 and I can't recall any being available at the time of the battle. I might be mistaken but a D would certainly be the most prevalent for that time.
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 09:46 AM UTC
Thanks, guys. I really appreciate this. I've dabbled with Panthers, before but never gave them serious thought.
PantherF
Joined: June 10, 2005
KitMaker: 6,188 posts
Armorama: 5,960 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:10 AM UTC
I know you're a modern armor guy Matt but you just can't build ONE Panther.
They are kind of like Shermans... one just only spikes your interest.
Jeff
They are kind of like Shermans... one just only spikes your interest.
Jeff
3rdArmoredVet
Joined: August 28, 2013
KitMaker: 148 posts
Armorama: 108 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:34 AM UTC
Jeff's right, the Panther series is highly addictive. If I could ever ride in just one more tank I wish it could be a Panther. I loved my M1A1 but the Panther has always been my favorite and my ideal of what a battle tank should be.
One more thing, when you buy your D model, make sure it does NOT have Zimmerit. It wasn't available at the time of Kursk.
One more thing, when you buy your D model, make sure it does NOT have Zimmerit. It wasn't available at the time of Kursk.
padawan_82
Joined: December 10, 2008
KitMaker: 817 posts
Armorama: 555 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 01:00 PM UTC
For a correct panther d at kursk Matt you will need to make sure you have the fender extentions on the front fenders if I recall model artisan mori did them but I don't know if they're still available. Ant 
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 03:06 PM UTC
Actually, I'm finding myself addicted to Bradlies and Stugs. Sounds like I have my work cut out for me.
Hederstierna
#247
Joined: January 03, 2008
KitMaker: 1,102 posts
Armorama: 1,018 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 07:29 PM UTC
Matt
Be sure to get the Dragon Panther ausf. D in their Premium edition. It's got all you need for your project, except the extended front fenders. These can be found in the Aber or Eduard range. If you have some issues about the Magic Tracks included in the kit, I'll gladly trade you for some early pattern DS Tracks
Good luck with the Panther
Best regards
Jacob
Be sure to get the Dragon Panther ausf. D in their Premium edition. It's got all you need for your project, except the extended front fenders. These can be found in the Aber or Eduard range. If you have some issues about the Magic Tracks included in the kit, I'll gladly trade you for some early pattern DS Tracks
Good luck with the Panther
Best regards
Jacob
PantherF
Joined: June 10, 2005
KitMaker: 6,188 posts
Armorama: 5,960 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:03 PM UTC
Well, there IS a StuG Campaign coming up soon!
Jeff
Jeff
easyco69
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I know you're a modern armor guy Matt but you just can't build ONE Panther.
They are kind of like Shermans... one just only spikes your interest.
Jeff
True dat Jeff,
I built 6 lol
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 12:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Matt
Be sure to get the Dragon Panther ausf. D in their Premium edition. It's got all you need for your project, except the extended front fenders. These can be found in the Aber or Eduard range. If you have some issues about the Magic Tracks included in the kit, I'll gladly trade you for some early pattern DS Tracks
Good luck with the Panther
Best regards
Jacob
Thanks, Jacob. I actually like Magic Tracks.
Quoted Text
Well, there IS a StuG Campaign coming up soon!
I'll be sure to enlist.
Wierdy
Joined: January 26, 2010
KitMaker: 570 posts
Armorama: 553 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 01:40 AM UTC
Hello Matt
It is true that by the time of the Battle of Kursk D was the only version of the Panther available (and yes, it had no Zimmerit yet). As for the longer front mudguards - they were mostly installed on the vehicles arriving to the front line (there is a well-known photo of them on a train).
About the camo: all Panthers of the time were dark yellow and some had cloudy green patches, but no three-tone.
My suggestion for your project would be DML Panther D too, and check your reference images for the prototype, cause there may be some slight variations in details and equipment.
Finally,here is a link to a Russian blog on one of the vehicles you might want to build:
http://panzer35.ru/forum/39-5440-1
It is in Russian, but with plenty of self-explaining images
Good luck and happy modeling!!!
It is true that by the time of the Battle of Kursk D was the only version of the Panther available (and yes, it had no Zimmerit yet). As for the longer front mudguards - they were mostly installed on the vehicles arriving to the front line (there is a well-known photo of them on a train).
About the camo: all Panthers of the time were dark yellow and some had cloudy green patches, but no three-tone.
My suggestion for your project would be DML Panther D too, and check your reference images for the prototype, cause there may be some slight variations in details and equipment.
Finally,here is a link to a Russian blog on one of the vehicles you might want to build:
http://panzer35.ru/forum/39-5440-1
It is in Russian, but with plenty of self-explaining images
Good luck and happy modeling!!!
jrutman
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 01:56 AM UTC
Matt,
I can only agree with and verify the others suggestions.and add as a historical note that the start date of the German offensive was actually pushed back to allow time to get the brand new Panthers to the front and train the crews. That is how new they were and shows what version was used! VERY early.
J
I can only agree with and verify the others suggestions.and add as a historical note that the start date of the German offensive was actually pushed back to allow time to get the brand new Panthers to the front and train the crews. That is how new they were and shows what version was used! VERY early.
J
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 02:00 AM UTC
Thank you all for the informative replies. I will start gathering reference material, for this build.
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 02:16 AM UTC
Does anyone know how the ICM Panther D compares with Dragon? Is it a viable alternative? ICM has improved greatly recently.
Wierdy
Joined: January 26, 2010
KitMaker: 570 posts
Armorama: 553 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 02:27 AM UTC
To Biggles2:
In general,ICM kit is very good for beginner and a decent starter if you plan to add tonnes of AM goodies cause the kit itself has no PE at all, but is correct size-wise, plus I would replace all OVM tools.
Check out these links:
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/icm/icm35361.htm
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/107743
http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/a-1-35-pzkpfw-v-panther-ausf-d/8464
HTH, Cheers, Paul
In general,ICM kit is very good for beginner and a decent starter if you plan to add tonnes of AM goodies cause the kit itself has no PE at all, but is correct size-wise, plus I would replace all OVM tools.
Check out these links:
http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/icm/icm35361.htm
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/107743
http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/a-1-35-pzkpfw-v-panther-ausf-d/8464
HTH, Cheers, Paul
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 03:06 AM UTC
The Dragon offering is proving a little difficult to locate. The ICM kit looks to be a little more expensive, but may be the only option.
AlexB1969
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 03:10 AM UTC
Were the radiator vents different on the Kursk Panther Ds? I have seen some aftermarket products offering a Kursk Panther upgrade with different radiator vents and stowage on the the right side? I can't remember if the Dragon kit comes with these vents or not. I tried building the ICM kit and gave up because of fit issues. Have an awesome time with your build.
firstcircle
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,249 posts
Armorama: 2,007 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 08:31 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Were the radiator vents different on the Kursk Panther Ds?
I think this relates to the two circular vents; there is the radial pattern (where the radiating lines would all meet in the centre of the circle) and the spiral pattern (not really a spiral, but the radiating lines would actually meet to form a smaller circle in the centre, like they are twisted around). It seems that the earliest production Ds have both vents spiral, while later Ds (and As) have a spiral on the right radial on the left. There are other possible differences that relate to the fittings in the hatch over the engine.
Then again, there is a photo of an A with two spiral vents... the problem is that there were a large number of small changes made to Ds from the very beginning, and it seems it is not even possible to say with total certainty that a tank produced at a particular time would have a particular configuration. Apparently new pattern parts would sometimes be stocked new on top of old, with the result that a later production might feature an older pattern part. Or a modification would be ordered, and then not fitted immediately, probably because the different companies making them wanted to use up parts they had already manufactured or bought from suppliers.
Yes... I bought myself a present...
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 08:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWere the radiator vents different on the Kursk Panther Ds?
I think this relates to the two circular vents; there is the radial pattern (where the radiating lines would all meet in the centre of the circle) and the spiral pattern (not really a spiral, but the radiating lines would actually meet to form a smaller circle in the centre, like they are twisted around). It seems that the earliest production Ds have both vents spiral, while later Ds (and As) have a spiral on the right radial on the left. There are other possible differences that relate to the fittings in the hatch over the engine.
Then again, there is a photo of an A with two spiral vents... the problem is that there were a large number of small changes made to Ds from the very beginning, and it seems it is not even possible to say with total certainty that a tank produced at a particular time would have a particular configuration. Apparently new pattern parts would sometimes be stocked new on top of old, with the result that a later production might feature an older pattern part. Or a modification would be ordered, and then not fitted immediately, probably because the different companies making them wanted to use up parts they had already manufactured or bought from suppliers.
Yes... I bought myself a present...
It would seam that I would be safe going either direction. From what I understand, although well planned, Kursk was Hitler's last ditch defense against the invading Russians. Of course this wasn't really the "last" last ditch defense, but the only one that had any hope of success. Please, correct me if I am wrong.
chefchris
Joined: February 06, 2006
KitMaker: 1,544 posts
Armorama: 1,464 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 09:01 AM UTC
About the camo: all Panthers of the time were dark yellow and some had cloudy green patches, but no three-tone.
-----------------------------
Paul, There were certainly Panthers with three color schemes at Kursk. No cloud patterns but the 3 color crazy paving was there.
Chris
firstcircle
Joined: November 19, 2008
KitMaker: 2,249 posts
Armorama: 2,007 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 09:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Please, correct me if I am wrong.
No, please don't turn this thread into one of those threads... let's stick to the config of the tank!!
retiredyank
Joined: June 29, 2009
KitMaker: 11,610 posts
Armorama: 7,843 posts
Posted: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 10:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextPlease, correct me if I am wrong.
No, please don't turn this thread into one of those threads... let's stick to the config of the tank!!
I had a feeling that this was a topic of great dispute.
Quoted Text
About the camo: all Panthers of the time were dark yellow and some had cloudy green patches, but no three-tone.
-----------------------------
Paul, There were certainly Panthers with three color schemes at Kursk. No cloud patterns but the 3 color crazy paving was there.
Chris
I think I will be going with the cloudy green camo. So, this part of the discussion will have no bearing on my build.
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