I may be wrong here, but it seems as if (unlike every other large company) AFV Clubdoesn't have a website. Is this true, or is it me? Jim

I'm afraid it is not just you... They really don't have one.

Rgds,
Pawel

At one time they did. I know the owner of AFV Club/Hobby Fan, see him a couple of times a year when he comes out to research potential model subjects. Very nice gentleman and a joy to be around, but doesn't speak English very well. Same with his small staff. The website was likely a big challenge to maintain that produced little in return - as it was not a retail site. So, the better tact for a small group like this was to focus on getting their product(s) out instead - focusing on their core competencies...

An opinion based on speaking with him...

Gunnie

Good to know ,guntruck. Now, pass along to him we are crazed(or I am ,anyway) for that M 37 to find its way to the shelves and workbenches.

Actually, he is quite aware of what "fans" would like to see in minature. I think he, more than the big Tamiya and Hasegawa's of the industry. Motivation is a factor. AFV Club/Hobby Fan is not his primary business focus. It is very much a "hobby" sideline - much like guys like me who model on commission but have a "real job" to pay the bills and feed the family. However, you should see the joy in his eye when "investigating" a potential subject to render in miniature. You think modelers are bad - he's just as fascinated and interested.

In this case, supplying equipment to the Taiwanese military is his primary focus. When it comes to model products, they specifically produce what they're really interested in - and balance that with what will realistically sell - in individual units. Subjects with a potentially large sales run in individual kits (like the excellent M35A2 Cargo Truck) become injection molded plastic products because they've got a good shot at recouping the expense of steel molds, etc. This is a risky call - because modelers are a fickle bunch. So far, it appears that they have made some pretty good decisions - and that is done through contact with the consumers - modelers...

Hobby Fan products are done in resin and in short unit runs because they're cool, but also unusual and esoteric subjects that the owner really likes. The Chenowith Fast Attack Vehicle, Lance battlefield missiles, etc. Wonderful subjects for nuts like me - but I don't see the rush from modelers to buy them. The owner made the decision to produce them in short run and in resin instead of the huge expense of steel molds. It's a practical approach to producing model kits and keeps them in business.

Gunnie

Thanks for the information guys, I knew there had to be some logical reason... I for one am going to continue supporting companies like AFV Club and Accurate Miniatures, I prefer smaller companies who think about the customers and are not afraid to go out on a limb to produce more unusual subjects. I just wish the 'big boys' would just ask what we want occasionally, many of our personal 'wish-lists' could also be commercial as well....Jim

Gunnie, I'm sure you already do but be sure to thank this gentleman, from AFV Club, for us Allied kit fans. I don't have any AFV Club kits yet but they are high on my list of "must have" kits for the coming new year.

Yep - you hit it on the head. Accurate Miniatures, Fine Molds, AFV Club, Skybow, these are examples of smaller outfits that produce world-class miniatures. I support them without fail because they do consistently produce quality and do consistently listen to the consumer(s). A small 5 or 25 man outfit has a hard time matching the resources of the 5000+ man outfits with the big names. Conversely, the smaller outfits have the time and interest to actually listen to what the consumers say instead of talking heads in Marketing. Sometimes, growth into a juggernaut isn't good for the consumer in the end. Decisions are made by people not too far removed from the consumer in the smaller groups - and people got governed by Marketing groups as on the macro-scale.

If you're looking for a barometer to gauge just how big a company gets before losing touch with courage to produce unusual subjects and take risks - I'd point to Italeri. They sure take it on the chin - but consistently display that courage to produce unusual subjects for their consumer base. The problem comes in that the quality sometimes suffers in trying to balance quality versus cost in production. They're too big to think small, and too small to act big in production technique it appears. Academy is in the same class too - but they've seemed to strike the balance better with big time production quality and subjects that are a little daring but likely to sell just above break-even on production cost.

If you look at Italeri and Academy - and think how hard and risky a decision is to produce a model kit - you'd quickly understand how easy it is to lose touch with the consumer. Double or triple them and you get Tamiya and Hasegawa. Marketing takes the place of the voice of the consumer...

Gunnie

I really do! You also should see his eyes when he's told how much modelers like his products! They light up like a kid on Christmas morning. Man, who wouldn't want to know someone really appreciates one's efforts...

Manufacturers use the inspiration just like we do That's a reason why I'm careful not to "slam" every product that comes out. It does little good in the end to attack a manufacturer in that manner - and does more to stunt the drive to produce improved and a wider range of subject matter in the end. The voice of the consumer is powerul - most just don't realize how powerful it is...

Gunnie

I don't think the rumours that get started help the smaller companies either. Recently Accurate had to use their website to discount a rumor and rumors are flying about that AFV is producing a range of Centurions. Now, I for one hope this rumor is true, but until that time I'll treat it with a healthy dose of scepticism....Jim

Nope - the rumors don't do the smaller outfits any favors for sure. I wonder where some of them come from in the first place. I'm not aware of an AFV Club/Hobby Fan Centurion - but that doesn't mean I know everything they're doing. It just seems unlikely...

But - if they did - wowzers (to borrow an expression from Inspector Gagdet)! I think I'd buy three of them sight unseen, that's how much confidence I have in their products. The smaller guys are fun to watch because you can never guess what coming next...

Gunnie

Gunnie,

The next time you see the AFV Club owner, add my Kudos to the list. Thier products are without peer IMHO. After purchasing the Sd. Kfz. 11 and the LeFH18 kits I am amazed at the detail of both kits. Needless to say, there are more AFV kits in my future. Especially the Pak 43/41.

Yeah, Same here Gunny, the owner of AFV club is doing a better job than anyone else in the hobby is, rescuing Skybow was an act of salvation.... Jim

Hey GUnnie, did not know you were so well connected... you devil you!

Anyhow, maybe you know the reason why the Hobby Fan kits are so darned spendy...even for resin. I would love to have a good portion of the line-up for Hobby fan, but alas, my pockets are not that deep. I know, I know...whine, whine, cry, cry... I am assuming the increase in price is due to shipping charges/tariff/import costs...etc.

Well, in the case of Hobby Fan resin products...

The subject matter is only meant for short-run production (meaning 100 to perhaps 500 individual kits or units) because it is not known whether or not they will sell out. The master is produced, naturally, handmade which is laborious and painstaking for the miniaturist(s) to do. This is the first cost to cover.

Next, production molds are cast of the masters. The RTV and process is expensive too. The first go around is to produce the parts and then assemble them to make sure they actually fit. Shrinkage during the resin casting process is accounted for and adjustments made to the master when necessary. Once the first cast is a go - then a second and perhaps third master is created - and then multiple molds are cast. The lifetime of a mold is finite, so a set of molds are created for the anticipated number of pours to complete the production run. For a short-run - I can imagine at least three masters and up to six molds - depending on how many you can pour at a time. Cost can be determined at a piece rate per (which is difficult) or piece by weight (more likely). Second cost(s) considerations to cover.

Labor to pour your parts. Raw Materials. Packaging. Instructions. Marketing. Shipping/Import/Export/Warehouseing Fees - everyone gets a little piece. All of these come in as a third consideration once the subject is ready to go. If you're a small-shop - you'll be wearing many different hats - but these expenses have to go into the kit too.

To cover the expense and support perhaps a small team (5 people) in a production run like this I can see a quality resin kit costs coming in around $75 dollars. I say "quality" taking what Hobby Fan puts into their kits. Some smaller outfits charge a premium with considerably less in the box in terms of quality. Last group of costs to consider covering is determining a profit margin. What's fair? 3%, 5%, 25% on the base cost ($75 bucks) mentioned above? If you take a lower margin in the interest of fairness - then there's another expense to consider. How do you cover the R&D expense? You want to (hopefully) produce another kit in the future. Where does the money come from to fly across an ocean (in many cases), find a place to stay, load the camera with film, purchase paper, pads, pens, drawings, reference material, gain access to perhaps a restored vehicle (a real bonus) - and get all of this back to your miniaturists and designers? This is a kicker - and can boost the raw cost of a kit - as the "quality" can only be as good as the reference and the start you get at the outset. The kit of today pays for the kit of tomorrow...

Considering all of this for the smaller guys - I can see the Hobby Fan Chenowith Fast Attack Vehicle coming in around the $100 dollar mark. The rub for the consumer is - can I buy and build this kit? Some of these premium priced kits go together quite well - others aren't worth the money. Finding a good design and production team must be pretty difficult...

My views here...

Gunnie

Gunnie,

As usual a Response full of Valid (and useful) information. Just starting to cast resin for myself and finding out some of the Pitfalls I Now understand why resin conversions can be so expensive!!!!

I wax and wane when thinking about going into a production type business like this. I think I would only consider it - if it wasn't my primary income source. If I retired early with a good financial base - then I'd consider making a go of it in addition to my present building service. It's tough to strike out there and give something like this a go...

Gunnie

Gunnie and Matt, remember, you don't own a small business, it owns you. I've been there and done that, not in modeling, and I have many friends with small businesses and they all say the same. You don't go into a small business to make money, you do it because you can't help yourself.

I believe you're correct! I don't really have the temperament for a business that "owns" me. I know I give my VP fits sometimes - well - most of the time in approaches to the real job. A successful man knows his limitations...

I demand a great deal of freedom and lattitude in what I take on in my modeling efforts - think "Hawkeye Pierce from M*A*S*H literally here. That's a big reason why I don't gravitate to the production side. I think I "can still help myself" and avoid that which would ultimately make me crazy...

Gunnie :-)

Gunnie,
I'm sure you have done so, but mention the need and want for an M54 truck in plastic to AFV Club next time you see them!!!

He probably thinks my name is M54 by now...

By Your Command!

Gunnie

I guess the reason I don't want to think about centurions (and constantly dismissing the rumors) is because I don't want to be dissapointed when they don't appear from AFV Club....(if you can understand the logic ) . My mind has gone into overdrive thinking about AFV treatment on the following subjects:
The Staghound a/c series
Mack and Diamond T trucks
Churchills
AEC Matadors
Saladins and Saracens

etc.,etc., etc., Just imagine any of the above getting the AFV Club treatment...... (ever optimistically) Jim