I know that the IV E served with dunklegelb and schwartgrau camo patterns. Does anybody know of any other possible camo patterns?

Matt;

I suspect that these few Pz. IV E with vorpanzer served earlier in Barbarossa and concurrently, and that all of them were originally dunkelgrau only - one or another may have been field-painted by crew with the added - on available sand or grauengrun or a captured Russian paint color - but NOT with "official Dunkelgelb", as that did not appear as an available color anywhere before early 1943. The E-vorpanzer was post-Aug 1940, so did not see that brown-over-gray scheme used through the Blitz of 1940. And I have no info that suggests any of these E-vorpanzer were ever sent to north Africa - they were an up-armor thing for dealing with Russian bunkers, etc. - so no DAK or tropical schemes need apply.

This is only, of course, my take and opine on this.

It's like tossing a shiny lure out into a bass lake, or maybe dumping a bucket of fish-guts and blood over the side out in the near-shore ocean seas! I wait with baited breath to see what comes next!

Bob

PS: Are you prepping to tackle that cool Dragon E-vorpanzer kit?

Matt,

The answers to these kinds of questions always boil down to the model builder's decisions on his subject's time and place. If you decide to build the tank as it was manufactured, one set of circumstances was most likely. If you decide to build the tank as it was modified with Vorpanzer, then another set of circumstances would apply. If you decide to build a model of a long-serving "old campaigner" on its last legs, then there's yet another possibility, and if you decide to build a model of a rare, but still (IMO) historically plausible "final days" tank, then yet a fourth set of circumstances are possible.

As each of these circumstances transitions from one to another, the evidence of what actually happened becomes more and more circumstantial and each scenario becomes increasingly more "hypothetical" although (again IMO) still plausible. Except for the very first circumstances, as far as I can find, there is no direct evidence for any Vorpanzer camouflage other than plain Panzer gray.

My point, though, is that it is possible to reason out what are the possibilities, but only if you narrow down your subject to a particular time and place.

Keep in mind that the Ausf. E was only manufactured for about six months between Oct '40 and Apr '41, so from the factory, the tanks were certainly Panzer gray.

The Vorpanzer was added "sometime during 42" according to Craig Ellis (8wheels-good) in his book, "PzKpfW IV at the Front," vol. 2: Ausf. D, E plus TauchPz & VorPz. So, Vorpz was added still during the Panzer gray period.

Ellis goes on to postulate that "the Vorpanzer was an experiment," and he observes:

"It has been unclear if any vehicles fitted with this system actually saw any front line service as most photos show reserve PzDiv units in training well behind the front line. However, one image appeared ... at the end of 2009 that showed a Vorpz IV Ausf. D on the Russian front during the summer of 1942, in service with Grossdeutchland."

So, these are the parameters of my available references, as originally manufactured and as later modified, the Pz IV Ausf. E with Vorpanzer was almost certainly all Panzer gray.

However, because these vehicles were employed until they were all used up, it is plausible that a Panzer gray Pz IV E with Vorpz could have still have been in service after the Feb '43 three-color camouflage change. Remember that not only were new vehicles now delivered in Panzer yellow, but that camouflage paints (green, brown AND dark yellow) were supplied to the units in the field in order to paint vehicles already in service (and not to just add camouflage to the new dark yellow vehicles).

So, it is plausible that a Pz gray short barrel Pz IV could have had a field applied, one, two, three, or four-color (counting the Panzer gray) camouflage after this date (Feb '43) IF it was still in service somewhere .

Keep in mind that the Pz IV F2/G with the long barrel KwK L43 entered production about 1 year before then (~Feb 42), so most front line Panzer units would have replaced their short barrel Pz IV's with the longer barreled tanks before the three-color cammo order came into effect.

There are a few photos of rare short-barreled Pz IV's from rear echelon training units that were employed in the final months of the war, and at least one that I recall shows a tank that has been carefully repainted in three-color cammo (Normandy '44).

So, this is as far as I can help you.

Happy modeling!

Bob: Yes, I have Dragon's Vorpanzer on order. And, I will be using Voyager's etch for it.

Mike: Thank you very much, for the information. I have a rather superb book on the Panzer IV. However, it is in Russian(a language I have not spoke in some ten years) and a pdf. This leaves no easy method of translation. I think I would like to go with the later, three tone camo pattern.

This is not for competition, but I would like to make it historically plausible.

I think I would want to see a pic of one of these vorpanzer tanks in service in that later time and wearing such other paint schemes, were I looking to keep historically valid.

While some F1 short-gun tanks continued in service in Russia into 1943 with short guns, and some persisted elsewhere (even showing up in Normandy in 1944! And a few up in Norway in security units, as well, and maybe also in OZAK), and even a few D short-gun tanks hung around late, there were in fact only few Pz IV E (or any other ausf) fitted with this so-called vorpanzer stuff on their turrets, and these rarities may not have existed for long.

I love schemes other than the basic dunkelgrau - but again I'm pretty conservative and look to see photo evidence if I wanted one in tricolor. I have not been able to find any pic showing a Pz IV vorpanzer in something obviously other than dunkelgrau.

I'd opine that a field-applied non-dunkelgelb striping or dappling might have been a likely variation in Russia in 1942 or early '43...

Just saying.

Bob

In other words: If there is no photographic proof, it could not have existed.?

Matt;

Hardly! We all KNOW that there has been plenty of stuff and any number of things happened in history and never ever documented with a photo. And things German and armored in WWII doubtless figure large in this undocumented body of history.

As I said above, I'm rather conservative about much of this type of discussion - while doubtless many things have not been photographed and documented, a demonstrative photo does go much much further than any less-supported claim. I cannot prove the absence of something by merely not finding any solid evidence FOR it - lack of evidence is no sort of proof of absence - that's a principle of science and as I'm a member and practitioner thereof, I'm stuck with that. But also I cannot give much credence to any claim which has no known supporting evidence. To do that would be to say and allow "heck! Anything goes!"

It's a model. YOUR model. You had asked whether anyone knew of other schemes beyond those you know of. My answer is I know of no evidence that strongly argues for any thing like a tricolor Pz. IV E vorpanzer - but I cannot rule out that there could have been one!

Cheers!

Bob