Hello everybody,

I have come across this black and white picture of a Panzer III in which i am unable to figure out the colour on. Here is the picture:

http://militarymodels.co.nz/2012/04/15/a-diorama-idea-for-when-you-have-a-tank-kit-that-is-missing-half-of-its-wheels/


Any idea which colour scheme that would be?

Thank you very much!

Since its such an early model Pz. III its definitely panzer grey.



Erik

or Grey and Brown if the picture was taken in France or Poland...

Rick

Thanks a lot guys!

it wasn´t taken in Poland, hence it has the mid war Balkenkreuze... these were introduced shortly after the polish campaign, also the Ausf. E was just produced from late September ´39 onwards...

I´ve never seen pics form France with mud in this dimension, so I´d rather say i was taken in Russia, fall or winter `41

so a plain panzergrey would be my recommodation...

Never seen mud in France in this dimension...........
Believe me: tracked vehicles of my battery have been stuck in mud like this even in the summer due to the fact that some places just collect rain and drain water over a long period. If you visit Muenster Lager, Germany, you may find swampy areas all over the year, creating these kind of mishaps!
So, actually, this could happen all over Europe. Most likely is, due to the rather new appreance of the vehicle, that this might have happened during a training or test drive. Also, any outside equipment or gear is missing, which supposes a vehicle outside a (direct) combat area. Is there a long coat military standing at the left side of the vehicle?
Furthermore, to state that Poland would be unlikely? Why? German tanks drove around in Poland until 1944.

It looks grey & brown to me. There's a colour boundary on the front slanted plate.

David

It is panzer grey, sure.

Sorry, for stylistic matters I decided not to use the word polish campaign twice... it should have been clear by the context

I have to admit... I hadn´t that close look, but you´re right, the tools are missing. So that we can conclude (or rather guess) that it could have been a test-/trainingrun

If so I´d still stick with panzer grey without the brown spots... they were field applied by the crews and there was no more brown paint delivered somewhere around the start of 1940

Are you sure it was field applied ? Seems to me I've seen factory shots in the two tone scheme.. Might be a bit of both..depending on dates .

Rick

I read it somewehre related to the "Westfeldzug" (1. battle of france).... but don´t know where, which makes me an excelent source, I know

Just a little bit of FYI: The German Pz.GRAY and BROWN camouflage scheme was a pre-war scheme; any and all German vehicles that were painted in this scheme prior to WWII went into combat with those colors still in evidence. There are many photos that show the Pz.GRAY and BROWN scheme in both peace-time and 1939/1940...

Seems to be an "E", to me - and I agree with any who posit post-Poland owing to the style of the Balkankreuz (and the numbers). My strong guess is that it is either a pretty fresh E in a training site in late 1939 or early 1940, or (much less likely, owing to missing OVM and otherwise very fresh condition) a early Blitz 1940 tank. The freshness and lack of damage and evident wear and the clear markings, together with lack of non-standard stuff and baggage, strongly argue to me against a serving Balkans or Russia campaign vehicle.

I would go with the brown over gray scheme. The noted front deck lining and shades are pointers this direction.

ALL E would initially have likely been painted B over G owing to their production period.

PS: The B over G scheme was current regs though JUL 1940, so any and almost all Blitz 1940 tanks could legitimately have this scheme - at least until repainted or refurbished during this campaign. New equipment being issued into front units from APR or May 1940 may have escaped getting the B layer applied, as funds and brown paint supplies were cut from APR 1940.

The brown in the 1937 - 1940 B over G scheme was "always" applied by units - usually in "lager" - as new vehicles were shipped from factories in straight gray, and units had a paint budget / fund and procured and applied their brown after receiving equipment. The brown could be sprayed or brushed on, and could follow "unit standardized" or individual crew patterns - photos show both soft and hard-edge patterns. (I say "always" by units as there is little evidence I know of that any factory applied these schemes - but I can always be wrong in this assertion! )

Just my opinion, of course!

Bob

You guys had me scrambling through my books before I have to run to work ... If you have Panzer Tracts number 23 there are a few factory shots and you can see the two tone paint jobs ... I knew I had seen it somewhere! But I do agree that both were done...

Rick

I had a colser look at the tank again... and i noticed something

can we aree on that I rained a bit after the tank got stuck? that would explain the lighter and darker spots in the blue box and the gloosy look of the top surfaces...

I also had a closer look at the anomalia at the front (red), I´ve noticed that there was also something on the edege of the plate(green).
Would be logic if we see this (and another light spot above) as mud. So the anomalia could just be washed down mud a crew member left while climbing on the tank...

Just to bring this disscisssion again a bit closer to the subject

If I am not mistaken, these are the two camouflage schemes in question.

The black 'n white photo does look incredibly similar to the solid German gray pre-war type paintjob. The latter does seem to be more interesting for the viewer. It's a hard one to choose!







Thank you all

Just in advance: It´s impossible to find the "right" color... but the panzergrey (which was used in both variants) was way darker than in your second pic... it was slightly more black than grey...so the fist one is (concerning the base colour) the better reference in this case...

Just wondering wingnut123 why do you need to know?

If you are going to make a diorama of this photo, you could pick either of the 'Panzer Grey' or 'Grey brown' and be right. If something this simple can cause a discussion like this, you have a very good reason to just use the one you want!

Well this is exactly why we should ask these kind of questions.. Good discussions and learning new things from all the wealth of knowledge on this site.. I love it .

Rick

Rick has pretty much answered the question for you, I have one curious mind and putting any old colour to a black and white photo didn't do it for me.




There's nothing more important to the growing of one's mind than discussion with peers.