King Tiger Porsche-Operational Damage
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 02:13 AM UTC
Hi everyone.
I've been slowly working on a King Tiger from the summer of 1944. Sometimes, I buckle and bend the photo etch pieces when I glue them to the model. If I wanted to depict these damaged pieces as operational damage (tank scraping a tree or building or some such), would I be way off base?
Happy Holidays. Be well.
Alex
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 09, 2010
KitMaker: 979 posts
Armorama: 959 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 02:23 AM UTC
No the fenders would be damaged during the operational life of a tank, the side fenders were often torn away from the vehicle rather than being very badly damaged and remaining in situ
do a google search of King Tigers and have a look at the vehicles there
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 02:34 AM UTC
Thank you for your awesome answer. I've seen photos of KTs with fender damage as well as missing portions of the fender (if not all of the fender) altogether. My concern is with the tow cable mounts or tool mounts on the sides of the hull...especially if I leave parts of the fenders on.
Have a joy-filled weekend.
Alex
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 03:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you for your awesome answer. I've seen photos of KTs with fender damage as well as missing portions of the fender (if not all of the fender) altogether. My concern is with the tow cable mounts or tool mounts on the sides of the hull...especially if I leave parts of the fenders on.
Have a joy-filled weekend.
Alex
As has been suggested,try a search of pics showing Tigers. The mounts yo speak off were on the hull sides and the sides slope inward,thereby protecting the pieces there from being torn off as easily as the track guards. You could show parts of the OVM missing as this happened a lot. Crew gets surprised during track repair or over run by enemy forces,have to get out before they get killed or captured,something like that.
These things broke down a lot and also did get knocked out or suffer mine damage but the German army had an excellent vehicle recovery system and would repair or recover anything within their part of the battlefield quickly. HTH
J
Quebec, Canada
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 03:36 AM UTC
Quoted Text
These things broke down a lot and also did get knocked out or suffer mine damage but the German army had an excellent vehicle recovery system and would repair or recover anything within their part of the battlefield quickly. HTH
J
Well, yes and no. In the first half of the war the Germans did have a good recovery system, but, as the tide turned, and the Germans no longer owned the battlefields, damaged and broken-down tanks were usually just abandoned to the other side, or self-destroyed by the crew.
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 03:47 AM UTC
Thank you for the great answers :-)--
Quebec, Canada
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
Armorama: 3,579 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 04:06 AM UTC
Hi Alex ...When you do your damage just remember the fender pieces on the KTs were armor plate and would not be easy to bend ..They would tear off before bending.
Have fun with your project...
Rick
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 04:09 AM UTC
Rick: that's a great point. I've not seen photos of KTs with damage to the fenders. Lots without the fenders.
South Carolina, United States
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 04:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Alex ...When you do your damage just remember the fender pieces on the KTs were armor plate and would not be easy to bend ..They would tear off before bending.
Have fun with your project...
Rick
+1 on this.
The KT fenders were made of material about 5 mm thick and were intended to perform the same function as the Schurtzen on other tanks.
You do see missing sections quite often, and the very occasional bends or miss-aligned sections, but the KT side fenders did not "crumple" up like sheet metal.
Type into your Google search "King Tiger Images" and check out the photos of, especially, destroyed or immobilized KT's and look at the fenders. They're usually still very straight and undamaged. Some sections might be missing, but what remains is usually in pretty good shape.
HTH,
Mike Roof
AMPS #1632
Chapter Contact
AMPS Central SC
Visit us at http://www.ampscentralsouthcarolina.org
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 04:43 AM UTC
What I can't seem to find are photos of KTs with every day damage. Lots of battle damage where parts were blown off. I'm more focused on something like a large branch from a tree catching on a tool clamp or something along those lines.
New York, United States
Joined: December 29, 2011
KitMaker: 343 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 04:59 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
These things broke down a lot and also did get knocked out or suffer mine damage but the German army had an excellent vehicle recovery system and would repair or recover anything within their part of the battlefield quickly. HTH
J
Well, yes and no. In the first half of the war the Germans did have a good recovery system, but, as the tide turned, and the Germans no longer owned the battlefields, damaged and broken-down tanks were usually just abandoned to the other side, or self-destroyed by the crew.
I agree with both, (but more with recovery) If anyone read the book "Tigers In The Mud" by Otto Carius (which I highly recommend)I was surprised at how often they went in at night to recover tanks whenever they could from the days battle and it was often.
The Scenic Factory
www.thescenicfactory.com
New York, United States
Joined: December 29, 2011
KitMaker: 343 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 05:06 AM UTC
Also forgot, this has been mentioned here before
http://www.tiif.de/ (Tiger in Focus) or google it.
Its a pain to sign up and its in German so you have to translate it but its got a lot of great pics that you probably haven't seen before as well as a lot of info.
- John
The Scenic Factory
www.thescenicfactory.com
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 06:44 AM UTC
Thanks for the link John. Lots of great pictures and many I have not seen. Can't wait until next year to purchase some of your products. Happy Holidays. Alex
New York, United States
Joined: December 29, 2011
KitMaker: 343 posts
Armorama: 313 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 06:57 AM UTC
Your welcome Alex,
On another note that relates to tree damage, at one point in the book (Tigers in The Mud) Otto Carius is describing a time when everyone is eating and/or having coffee - no threats, when all of a sudden unexpectingly out of no where they are bombarded by shells and everyone is tripping over each other and dropping everything they had trying to get to their tanks and once in them hitting trees and scraping trying to get out of there. Later he describes how much confusion it was. A fascinating read.
The Scenic Factory
www.thescenicfactory.com
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 07:59 AM UTC
Precisely John. And, from what I've read, as the war progressed and Germany's human resources were shrinking, the crews of the panzers didn't possess the skills and abilities of their early war counterparts. It just seems logical that these AFVs were scrambling around some tight spots in an attempt to avoid enemy fire.
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 19, 2013 - 04:21 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
These things broke down a lot and also did get knocked out or suffer mine damage but the German army had an excellent vehicle recovery system and would repair or recover anything within their part of the battlefield quickly. HTH
J
Well, yes and no. In the first half of the war the Germans did have a good recovery system, but, as the tide turned, and the Germans no longer owned the battlefields, damaged and broken-down tanks were usually just abandoned to the other side, or self-destroyed by the crew.
Yes of course,that's why I said "within their part of the battlefield",heeheehee,
J
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Friday, December 20, 2013 - 02:54 AM UTC
Thank you all for the great information. I've been out of the modeling scene for over 15 years and a lot has changed since then (I developed patience and arthritis). One quick question, I have begun using photo etch. I have been working on the gun cleaning rod mounts on this KT and the instructions call for some rod and use these specs: a 0 with a slash through it and .5mm. I can't figure what circumference of rod to use and how long I should cut it. Any thoughts. You are all the best. Thank you in advance. Alex
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 10, 2011
KitMaker: 7,941 posts
Armorama: 7,934 posts
Posted: Friday, December 20, 2013 - 03:05 AM UTC
Can't you use the parts that came with the kit as a guide?
J
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Friday, December 20, 2013 - 03:13 AM UTC
The mold on this part appears to leave no room to determine the length of rod needed because everything is molded together. I will take a second look and see if it helps.
I'm pasting the link to a review of the PE set I'm using. Image number 14 shows the parts that are confusing to me.
Thanks.
Alex
http://www.modelarmour.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=131:pe-for-king-tiger&catid=37:kits&Itemid=60 South Carolina, United States
Joined: May 07, 2010
KitMaker: 2,238 posts
Armorama: 2,158 posts
Posted: Friday, December 20, 2013 - 03:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you all for the great information. I've been out of the modeling scene for over 15 years and a lot has changed since then (I developed patience and arthritis). One quick question, I have begun using photo etch. I have been working on the gun cleaning rod mounts on this KT and the instructions call for some rod and use these specs: a 0 with a slash through it and .5mm. I can't figure what circumference of rod to use and how long I should cut it. Any thoughts. You are all the best. Thank you in advance. Alex
Alex, the "oh" with the extra long slash through it is an international symbol for diameter. In your post, the recommended diameter of the rod is .5 mm. This is roughly .020" diameter.
As to length, Jerry's suggestion is a good one. Use the length of the kit rods as the length of the new rods.
Usually with PE replacement tool brackets I use the kit tools as a "template" to make sure that those tools will fit into the new PE brackets after they're built. That is, I bend the PE to fit the tools. The same goes for where to glue the brackets on to the model. I use the tools as a spacer to get the placement right.
HTH,
Mike Roof
AMPS #1632
Chapter Contact
AMPS Central SC
Visit us at http://www.ampscentralsouthcarolina.org
Alabama, United States
Joined: July 12, 2013
KitMaker: 205 posts
Armorama: 120 posts
Posted: Friday, December 20, 2013 - 04:26 AM UTC
Thank you for the information. I will definitely use the kit pieces as templates for the photo etch 8-). Have a wonderful weekend everyone. Be well. Alex
