Okay guys !! I'm about to start a new project here and this one is an all out ,no holds barred, super duper,hold your breath ,it's going to win at the next show modell ....well I hope so ...maybe ...please!! Well you get the picture.... I'm planning to do S13 from DasRiech at Kursk....Okay I know it was one of the first Tigers that they received so it was grey at first ...I was then repainted with some dark yellow bands over the grey in the spring ....Okay now we all know that the riceived the "S" markings just before Kursk...Now I have different books and no one says the same thing....Were they completely repainted before Kursk?? would the still be in grey and yellow? I have the osprey book on the tiger it says they received tan or green over the grey ...Tigers on the Eastern front have them in grey and red brown ...Tigers in Combat II says in the written text 3 tone camo,but in the color plate has it in grey and red brown (same artist as tigers on the eastern front) I have the tamiya instructions saying yellow and green for S33 which was at the same time as S13 ..Also have other references but nor as reliable as these ...Panzer colors III say 3 tones ... another said yellow and redbrown.....another says grey yellow and green....Okay I know it would be alot easier just to pick another tank but I'm stubborn ....Let me hear what you guys think!!Please.(before I pull out all my hair...

Rick #:-)

Hi Rick -

I would go with base grey and dunklegelb overspray....

This is a picture of an 8th company Das Reich Tiger in April of 1943. I would say that this Tiger is base grey with a yellow overspray camo, at least that is what all my books tell me.... so far so good :-)


This is a picture of S13 during the Kursk offensive in July. Notice it has the new unit insignia on the vehicle, indicating that it had already recieved its new paint job for the offensive. It looks to me like the colors are very similar to the colors on the Tiger back in April. Now, it is hard to judge based on black and white photos - but I would say that S13 is grey with dunklegelb overspray.... right up throught the Kursk battle. I would assume that any green or brown camo painting would have been done at the same time the Tigers got the new unit insignias painted on them. Because S13 in this picture, has the new unit insignia, and looks to be the same colors as the April Das Reich Tigers, I would have to conclude that S13 was grey and yellow.....

Just my 2 cents :-)
Later-
Nelson

This is interesting discussion, I would get back to you people after I come back from the church and dig out my reference. Because I did my S33 circa. Kursk, and I painted it green on dunklegelb.

Hi Nelson and Dave ....Not easy to tell from black and white pictures is it?? I have the the same pictures in a few books ....I have seen the first picture in I think it was Panzer colors III and they caption that pic as saying that all the tigers were repainted in Yellow and green just before Kursk. That brings me to another question ........Now if let us say it was repainted in yellow and green(let's just say) how well would they cover the grey? Would they remove all the wheels to get to the back ones or would they just over spray the road wheels leaving alot of grey??? I'm so confused!! I was thinking of going grey and yellow ...but then you see the same S13 about six months later following S33 with a complement of fallshimjagers .She really looks the worst for wear but doesn't seem to have been repainted since Kursk could there really still be grey showing that late in 1943? Thanks for the pics Nelson ....The second one makes me really think it was still grey ..such contrast in the colors...

Rick(why can''t I stick to Olive Drab????) #:-)

Hi Rick -

My gut is telling me that S13 was grey with yellow overspray. The books I have seem pretty unanimous about the colors of the Das Reich Tigers in April..... grey and yellow. After that - they all say different things..... lol

I'm basing my hunch on the fact that the contrast in the colors on the second pic is very similar to the contrast on the first - a known April photo. Also, the new Das Reich insignia is evident in the second pic - telling me that it has already recieved its re-paint.

German grey was not uncommon throughout the later stages of the war. This pic was taken after the allied landings in Normandy... It shows a PzKpfw IV B of the 21st Panzer division and is still grey in 1944.


Of course - I'm just speculating here - there is no reason that S13 couldn't have gotten the full dunklegelb repaint and then green overspray.

I havn't seen the pic of S13 loaded with grenadiers - so take this for what it's worth - I'd say that the yellow/grey scheme could very well have endured till the winter. Das Reich was heavily involved in fighting, basically from Kursk on, so they might not have gotten around to re-painting good old trusty S13 :-)

hehe - this is fun, isn't it.... (as long as i'm not the guy trying to paint the model..... hehe)

Later-
Jeff

Well I guess that's how I'll do it ...I was sure of April too but between april and July alot could have happened...I guess the ones that they received in the spring were yellow based from the factories with green overspray though. I'll keep you guys up to date on the progress...It has to be done for the 1st of May and I'm loaded for bear on this one ...Front and back fenders from aber....Sideskirts from aber...Detail set for the early tiger from Aber and Lions roar.I also have an old set from on the mark...I have to choose which barrel I'm going to use...I have one from Lions Roar.Jordi, and Eduard...I've had them all reworked by my friend Daniel Munoz... He added some missing details to my guns...Thanks Dan....I also got Friul tracks for this bad boy...I think I'll be busy a while befor I get to the paint.... Thanks again.I'm still going to have to guess about a few details,but hey it's only a model ...right??

Rick

hehe - make sure you post some pics in the Rivet Review Board as you progress along, I'd like to follow this one for sure :-)

Ahhh - I love a good decked out Tiger......... good luck and may the force be with you

Later-
Jeff

Hi Rick, how are you ? Seasons Greetings ! First of all Panzer Colors series by Squadron is a fair series, but not the best or very acurrate for it's references. Secondly, DON"T EVER TRUST OR USE COLOR PLATE ILLUSTRATIONS AS REFERENCE FOR BUILDING ANY AFV TO AUTHENTIC / HISTORICAL SPECIFICATIONS !

Now, The German dark grey ( dunkelgrau ) and green look very similiar in shade, when looking at a B&W photo. Its known fact, and I'll have to skim through my ref's for the 2nd proof, but the 1st referenced proof and one I would trust alone, is the research by JENTZ. .... he has spent well over 20 years of traveling to museums, researching archives, military records, and historical battlegrounds, etc, and is the foremost expert when it comes to anything on the German Tiger & King Tiger

It was ordered down from SS Panzer Korp HQ, that Reich's " tactical division insignia for Kursk ( two vertical bars over a horizontal bar ) was to be painted white for a base coat of green. and black tactical insignia with a Tan base coat. ( This is what Jentz states in Ospreys "Tiger I Heavy Tank 1942-45 ". ) Das Reich tiger S13 at Kursk had white tactical division insignia ........................ CONCLUSION: S13 had a green base with an overspray of dunkelgelb. Like I said, I have this same order given for base coat and tactical insignia by HQ of SS Panzer Korps in another book. It's just been so long that I can't remember which book I have this reference in. I WILL MOST DEFINITELY TRY TO FIND IT FOR YA ! ( by the way I hope the show your taking this to is AMPS 2004, so we can finally meet ? )

- ralph

He Rick,

How u doin? Finished the Sturm already? If you can post some pics on that one. As for the Tiger S13 i did some search on the net and found this color pic. I'm not an expert on Tigers yet so i hope this helps a little. It looks green and yellow to me, but i think the roadwheels are still panzer grey. It's a rather small pic, sorry about that. Which model are you going to use by the way? I'm sure you will finish it by May and make a winning one to!!


BTW I post some update of my Tiger on RR-board tomorrow.

Hi APBullet, actually this Tiger is from 9.kompanie / Pz. Regiment Grossdeutschland, which also had a Tiger ' S13 '. I actually believe it's two-tone camo scheme is a dunkelgelb ( dark-yellow ) base with patches of brown. In any case, Tiger S13 that Rick wants is from 8.Kompanie / SS - Pz.Regiment 2.Das Reich.

..... By the way, I see your from Utrecht. Is there by any chance the same Utrecht where the high quality red sable Utrecht Artist Brushes are manufactured ?

- ralph

He Ralph,

I'm sorry but the brushes are only called Utrecht, after a famous painter (Vermeer) who lived in Utrecht. The brushes are produced in Germany but there are a lot of shops were you can get them.

HI AP, that's very interesting. I was just very curious to know about that.
We have Utrecht available here in America, and 90% of my brushes are Utrecht . I have some very expensive Winsor & Newton brushes too, but the thing is that my $3.00 to $6.00 Utrecht brushes are every bit as good in quality as the $12 & $15 Winsor & Newton brushes. .......................... ( Apologies for running off topic guys )

- ralph

Ralph,

Then your brush choice is made very fast! Mayby i give them a try :-)

i apologize too for being of topic

Okay guys now you got me thinking again....Hey Ralph if you keep reading the same Osprey book and the comment about the color plate...it says tan or green ligns over base grey.....things to make you go HMMMMMM!!!!!....I know not to trust the panzer color series too much but,...How bout Tiger's in cCombat II ....the Osprey book you mentioned....Tigers on the eastern Front,SS Armor. Nobody is saying the same thing...I mean it really drives me crazy. The TCII says written that they were all repainted before Kursk in a three color camo ,but Jean Restayn color print (I know not to trust them but you'd think he'd follow what the author said at least)....Seems my hair looks greyer this morning..!!!!.
Think I'll do an easy one ...a tiger in Africa hey that is easy ...just sand color ...or was it desert brown ...or was that field grey ...or panzer grey with a mist of yellow ...or was that olive drab?? nah !! I'll figure out this one someday ....grey or green??

Rick #:-)

NO - no - no -nooooooooooo Rick ! ( lol ) If you read page 42 it starts a whole new sentence, ..... " For the Kursk offensive ...etc... etc... etc. .... divisional sign .... etc ... etc ....... It was to be painted in white when the BASE COAT OF PAINT WAS GREEN and in black when the base coat was tan "

Notice he DOES NOT say "painted in white ( meaning the tactical division markings ) when the CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN paint was green.

THE BASE COAT, Rick ...... HE MEANS THE BASE COAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come on my friend, I know you have a modelers common sense It's in plain text right in front of you.

OK' Rick, yes it gets really @##$^# confusing with who say's this and who say's that.
I too have a good collection of well written book's which include both TIC Vol. 1 & 2, But I always " give Jentz the stage ! " Researching German Tigers IS HIS LIFES WORK, and he takes a lot of pride of getting his carefully and thoroughly researched work in the field out to us in books ..... " He's da man " my friend ! Well at least to his readers he is. I just wish I can find this 2nd proof of the order given to Das Reich for painting their heavy panzers at Kursk, for your tiger model. I'm looking though ...... I"m a- looking !
Hey Rick, so are you going to AMPS 2004 or what ???????????????? OH NO, time for " Mail Call "! I'lll catch you later Rick.

-- ralph

HI Ralph ...first before I forget ...I really would love to go to AMPS but two things keep me from going 1) Is me and 3 friends are planning a trip to Normandy in the fall (after all the festivities) and 2) I think I would need a bank loan for all the stuff I would want to buy from those vendors!!! I'd hate to go down and not be able to blow a couple of thousand bucks on new things for those future projects!! Okay back to the project on hand...So If I read you right ....They painted the whole tank green before adding the yellow stripes....?? The way I was reading it was there were either green or tan stripes over the base coat ... One thing though ...I have never seen a picture with a black divisional sign,but they did have yellow tigers at Kursk.....(the newer arrivals were yellow)..Okay so It will be a gray base coat ...with green sprayed all over it (except behind so of the wheels and some chipping of course) then yellow camo in wide stripes over that ...sounds like a plan!! Thanks a million Ralph...and funny how we can both read the same thing and not interpret it in the same way.
I owe you a when I do make it to AMPS...Maybe AMPS East this year ...not as far for me to travel...

Rick

Hey Rick .............LOL at AMPS 2002, I spent $700 CASH in 5 hours, So yes your right, if you go down there and plan to spend you definiely will. At AMPS East this past year, I took only $100 cash at left my credit cards at home ...... I put a leash on myself (LOL).

Your still not getting me. But it's up to you to do what you think is right. I'm just making suggestions according to Jentz's research which I believe to be more exacting than other researchers.
Let me put it this way ... I know I said don't trust artist illustration's but in this case Jentz has seen these over himself, because they are drawn to his standards. So that illustration PLATE B ..." Tiger I, sPz.Kp SS-Pz.Rgt.2 Das Reich, Russia 1943 " is what you want - GREEN BASE COAT with an overspray of dark-yellow ( dunkelgelb ) strip's or stripes
.. Like I said rick , it's your choice. But at least if you enter it in a show, and anyone gives you any grief , tell them " Hey pal, I built this beast according to the research of Tom Jentz " !

- ralph