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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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PzKpfw IV Ausf J... HELP! !!!
mmajoris
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Connecticut, United States
Joined: April 14, 2008
KitMaker: 1 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 07:38 AM UTC
Hey Everyone,

Apparently, I joined Armorama back in 2008, but I never remembered registering. So, I'm going to say that this is my first post! My name is Mike Majoris. I am new to this website, but not new to modeling. I started modeling back in 2002 when I was about 15yrs old. As time has gone on, I have learned a lot of different tips, techniques, and tricks from many different people over the years. In any case, on to my issue.

I am currently working on the Dragon PzKpfw IV Ausf.J Late / Final Production kit (Kit #6080). I have made quite a few modifications to the kit so far just to make it more accurate. I can post some construction photos later on.

For now, I'll try to make this somewhat organized and make a list of what information I am trying to find, but seem to keep hitting road blocks:

1.) Information on when they started producing the FINAL run of the Panzer IV Ausf J.

2.) What SS Panzer Divisions had the Ausf. J (final)? When and where would they have been used?

3.) Would any of the Ausf. J (final) have been present in France during the time of the invasion?

4.) Finally, I have a Verlinden Diorama base (Church ruins on either side of the road, with a cobblestone road running down the center) that I will be using for this model. The architecture of the semi-intact buildings appear as though the are of either French, or possibly German construction if I had to guess. This kind of goes back to the previous question, but were there any SS Divisions that had the Ausf. J (Final) while in France? Even Post D-Day? If not, What SS Divisions would have had the Pz IV Ausf. J (Final) in Germany, and when would they have been delivered to those SS units?

I apologize if my questions are kind of scatter brained. I hope they make at least some sense. I have been looking on the computer, along with quite a few different books that I have, and I have been driving myself nuts trying to find some solid information on this. sure, it would be easy to just glue everything together, paint it up and slap the decals that come with the kit onto the tank, but I (along with many people on here, I'm sure) cannot do that.

I want this to be as historically accurate as humanly possible. Even if no one else ever sees this completed Panzer, at least I will have satisfaction knowing that it is accurate, and not just something that I pulled from thin air. Plus, it will help me preserve any sanity that I have left at the end of this project!

Anyway, thank you in advance for reading my post, and for any information you could provide me with. It would be greatly appreciated!!

-Mike-
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,226 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 08:17 AM UTC
The kit you have is of a vehicle produced from December 1944 onwards...

Units could be 1, 2, 10 and 12 SS PD.
thebear
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
Armorama: 3,579 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 09:19 AM UTC
Hi Mike and welcome or welcome back As mentioned these J's started showing up in December and were seen during the Ardenne offensive... The 1SS had them ...Now did they have all the features of the final model???? Yhere seems to be different features at different time ...Some have the hull extention tow hook points others don't ... some have the the handles on the transmission covers others have the older type ..
Here is a good build with a few pictures that might be useful...

http://planetarmor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5607

Rick
panzerbob01
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 11:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Everyone,

Apparently, I joined Armorama back in 2008, but I never remembered registering. So, I'm going to say that this is my first post! My name is Mike Majoris. I am new to this website, but not new to modeling. I started modeling back in 2002 when I was about 15yrs old. As time has gone on, I have learned a lot of different tips, techniques, and tricks from many different people over the years. In any case, on to my issue.

I am currently working on the Dragon PzKpfw IV Ausf.J Late / Final Production kit (Kit #6080). I have made quite a few modifications to the kit so far just to make it more accurate. I can post some construction photos later on.

For now, I'll try to make this somewhat organized and make a list of what information I am trying to find, but seem to keep hitting road blocks:

1.) Information on when they started producing the FINAL run of the Panzer IV Ausf J.

2.) What SS Panzer Divisions had the Ausf. J (final)? When and where would they have been used?

3.) Would any of the Ausf. J (final) have been present in France during the time of the invasion?

4.) Finally, I have a Verlinden Diorama base (Church ruins on either side of the road, with a cobblestone road running down the center) that I will be using for this model. The architecture of the semi-intact buildings appear as though the are of either French, or possibly German construction if I had to guess. This kind of goes back to the previous question, but were there any SS Divisions that had the Ausf. J (Final) while in France? Even Post D-Day? If not, What SS Divisions would have had the Pz IV Ausf. J (Final) in Germany, and when would they have been delivered to those SS units?

I apologize if my questions are kind of scatter brained. I hope they make at least some sense. I have been looking on the computer, along with quite a few different books that I have, and I have been driving myself nuts trying to find some solid information on this. sure, it would be easy to just glue everything together, paint it up and slap the decals that come with the kit onto the tank, but I (along with many people on here, I'm sure) cannot do that.

I want this to be as historically accurate as humanly possible. Even if no one else ever sees this completed Panzer, at least I will have satisfaction knowing that it is accurate, and not just something that I pulled from thin air. Plus, it will help me preserve any sanity that I have left at the end of this project!

Anyway, thank you in advance for reading my post, and for any information you could provide me with. It would be greatly appreciated!!

-Mike-



Mike;

Hi! And welcome back to the site!

You have a lot of ground to cover... As mentioned by Marc, the kit you have is perhaps a "ca DEC 1944" J. So... it would not really qualify as a "final production J": J started production in JUNE 1944, and continued to April 1945, so, "chronologically speaking" this "DEC 44 kit" would be something more of a "mid-production J"! Unless one counts all J produced in the last 4 - 5 months as being "Final"...

Features shifted late in the war; from DEC 44 on, more tanks came out with mesh "Thoma schurzen" as factory equipment, and more had the "Flammenvernichter" exhaust-stacks, and most late J had mesh floors around the turret behind that turret-schurzen for to make a storage space. Of course, no IV made after SEP 1944 had zimmerit, and J lacked the power-pac engine used in H and earlier to power turret-rotation, so also lacked the small flat square exhaust system seen on G and H tanks rear.

I don't know anything about the kit you have - but if you are looking to build a really "final" J, it will be flammenvernichter exhausts, gas-detection panels on the turret, Thoma schurzen, floors around the turret schurzen, 3 steel return rollers per side, late-model hubs and maybe some steel road-wheels, "pilzen crane - sockets", reduced numbers of turret vision and pistol-ports, and a close-in defense weapon mounted in the turret-roof.

IF you are modeling a "DEC 1944" or later production J, I would say that it could not very likely have been in the Battle of the Bulge in DEC 1944 - nobody has, best I know, ever claimed that Germany managed to ship brand-new IV J over to Belgium that fast - say, from factory to front in a week. Tanks were issued to crew, who needed to train and sort out their new steed. Probably not sent as a replacement equipment for a lost tank in a unit. So a DEC production vehicle probably did not get there to participate. Most definitely NO "Final" or even "Late" J served in France (or anywhere!) at the time of the Normandy Invasion. Unless they were somehow transported in, no late J would have been at Cherburg or in any of the late 1944 Atlantic coast "pockets". Potentially some MAY have participated in "Operation Nordwind" in the Lorraine in JAN 1945 (about the end of German activity inside France).

Depending on how "late" or "final" you want your IV to be, you should do some searching through web pics of "Pz. IV J" and see what details and features appear. It may also be informative to look at the details on and reviews of the Dragon Pz. IV J "last production" kit 6575 - which is fundamentally cool and replete and, I believe, pretty accurate for a very late J.

Hope some of this helps as you develop your project!

Looking forward to seeing what you do! Bob
thebear
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Quebec, Canada
Joined: November 15, 2002
KitMaker: 3,960 posts
Armorama: 3,579 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 01:38 PM UTC
Hi Bob I do have a picture in the Osprey book Ardennes 1944 Peiper & Skorzeny showing a late J with the Thoma shields...and even the mesh covering the space between the hull and the schurzen... It may not be a final but it is a late..

Rick
panzerbob01
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Louisiana, United States
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 06:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Bob I do have a picture in the Osprey book Ardennes 1944 Peiper & Skorzeny showing a late J with the Thoma shields...and even the mesh covering the space between the hull and the schurzen... It may not be a final but it is a late..

Rick



Always fun!

I, too, happen to have a few pics showing IV with Thoma (mesh) schurzen being present in the Battle of the Bulge and the Ardennes!

The Concord Military Series (Armor at War) vol 7045 "The Battle of the Bulge", S. Zaloga, has a couple of these...

Page 8, for example, shows one of Peiper's IV J with mesh schurzen blown up on or around 17 DEC 1944. Seen from the rear, this is probably a fairly mid-production J - no zimm (so post-AUG 1944 production), no little square muffler (no auxiliary engine), but large single-can exhaust system. And yes, it has the mesh floors around the turret (or what's left of same ). The flammenvernichter (flammentoter) exhausts started appearing in SEP 1944, so tanks with single-can exhausts were more likely earlier in the production run, but...

IF what Zaloga says about the Germans working hard to bring in the most modern and "best" AFV available (citing that they brought in many of the newest - OCT - NOV production - Panthers and Tigers) holds true also for Pz IV as well, one may assume that there were "new" SEP - earlier NOV production Pz. IV brought up. As J's go, these would be post-zimmerit mid-production tanks.

Drahtgeflecht (Thoma mesh schurzen) came out in OCT - NOV 1944, and clearly some J at the Ardennes had them. Possibly even some late H! They became more and more frequent as OEM equipment towards the last couple of months of war, but plate schurzen were still available into early 1945, so...

Interestingly, there were seem to have been few IV involved in the Bulge / Ardennes - the units were Tiger and Panther-heavy. And the paucity of IV pics from that action support this - many more pics of Panthers and KT then of IV.

But those pics should be the guides in what one wants to model as an "Ardennes IV J".

Bob
marcb
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Overijssel, Netherlands
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,226 posts
Posted: Monday, January 13, 2014 - 08:51 AM UTC
Have you thought about a vehicle during the battles in Hungary?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Spring_Awakening

This site has some KO'd Pz IV in Hungary. Note that the large white number painted on the vehicles is a Russian addition.
http://www.battlefield.ru/photos/category/86-german-destroyed-afvs.html?limitstart=50
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