So my question of the day is if there good references or tips for a tank that has been recently destroyed (like on the order of a few hours. It appears that there is a short period where you get a lot of ash and burnt paint coating areas before the rust sets in within a day. What I haven't seen in the very few pictures I've found is any evidence of bare metal. Rather, areas with damaged paint are either ashy or sooty which quickly rusts over. Am I on the right track or are there things I'm missing?

Some pics that may help :









H.P.

Hello Matt,

The best example that I can think of off the top of my head to study would be the Panther that was destroyed in Cologne by an M-26 in '45.
That example shows the effect high heat and ammo "cooking off" have on the tanks armor plating. From what I've read about that tank is that it burned for 2 days after the encounter with the M-26.
Now I'm sure there are better examples out there that other members may have for you.

Hope this helps.
See ya in the funnies........................

...Then again Frenchy photo's will work too.

See ya in the funnies...............

Just as a technical comment:

There will, in fact, be little or no "bare metal" after a fire, if what we are thinking of is tanks being made of steel. You will have burnt paint (blackened colors), paint-ash, rubber -ash (hatch-seals and rubber tires), soot from burned fuel (especially from burnt diesel - liquid fuels burned in the open are inefficient and "dirty" burns (not enough oxygen for a complete and clean combustion!) and soot from burned oils and burnt propellant. And yes, soot from burnt crew.

The steel will basically rust immediately - hot steel oxidizes extremely fast (unless it is "stainless" steel - an Iron alloy which is much more inert and slow to oxidize. Stainless steel will burnish and change colors under moderate fire heat - but best best I know, tanks are not made of stainless!). Steel which got hot enough to incandesce will be rustier (and will be annealed! which is why those burned-out Panthers appear to sag down on their suspensions - their steel torsion-bars annealed, softened, and twisted.) So... if the burnt steel surfaces are NOT covered with soot, they will very very quickly be surface-rusted.

Of course, some modern AFV are not made of steel... a burnt-out M113 personnel carrier and the M555? Sheridan, for example, are made of aluminum. This stuff may actually melt and deform in a really hot fire, and oxidized ("rusted") aluminum is ashy white... so showing a burnt-out Sheridan won't be rusty-red but ashy white and gray (other than the soot).

Cheers!

Bob

http://www.mediafire.com/download/o717tnofadaut4e/Killed+tanks.zip

Here's a link to a collection of a few hundred photos of knocked out tanks from WWII. They're mostly black-and-white, and so may not be perfect for your uses, but hopefully they'll be of some help.
Cheers,
Scott

I guess that if you really want to use some rusty-red on a M113, you can



H.P.

VERY COOL, Frenchy! I love it! Looks a bit different from the few burned-out M113 I've experienced back in SE Asia and also (by way of accidents and arson) in the FRG! For a moment, there, I was stunned! Imagine that! An aluminum vehicle which rusts! But.... no. The rules of chemistry cannot be repealed by desire, so....

And hey, can't argue with a photo, now can we?

I would counsel being very cautious in painting a burned-out aluminum vehicle with rust, despite this very cool and interesting picture. We don't KNOW what-all is actually involved in getting to this image...

It does indeed appear to show some "rust" (aside from some steel parts such as the front hatch-coaming, etc., which would rust with fire) on the (best of my knowledge, aluminum) side...

I'm sure that there is a technical explanation for this - whether this is rusted vaporized steel (a sheet-metal panel or container could have been partially vaporized and then deposited - and rusted (oxidized) here? - an admittedly very feeble and even vaguely facetious guess!), residual "rusted" burned pigment from paint, even some add-on steel armor exposed by this fire? It is NOT burned aluminum.

I would note that the aluminum hull wall clearly is burned through below that rust... vaporizing steel items inside that hull would flow as hot gases out those burn-throughs, and could easily condense and rust on the outside wall. That would be my better-considered hypothesis for what we are seeing here.

Our problem, as modelers interested in this issue is, however, complicated. Modelers who want to depict a burned-out vehicle want to know what colors they can use. They also don't want others mistaking what they are purporting to show. What I'm saying is - I would not assume that all armored vehicles are made of steel. I would like modelers to be informed about that, so that they may avoid a cool-looking artistic appearance that purports something that really isn't what it may naively appear to be. Rusted aluminum would be one of these things.

Here's a picture of a burned-out aluminum-hulled yacht...
(image borrowed from a public-access web-site and posted here for discussion purposes only)



Note that much of the aluminum hull is ash-gray (and very melted and deformed), but that some painted parts still have various residue from their paint and burn-off events. The paint includes a wide range of chemistry - pigments, vehicles, etc. - which leave variously-colored residues (including some rust-brown).

For those who want to depict a burned-out AFV - there are a huge number of pics out there, and I would use them as guidance (with, again, some circumspection) as you proceed! Be aware of the complicating details!

Cheers!

Bob

PS: For the Sheridan fans... I blew it - actually I think I meant M551 Sheridan. Sorry!