It seems that tanks later than the T-62 rarely if ever saw combat by the USSR or Russia. Is my impression correct, and if so, why not?

Hi Tom;

If you want A Breakdown of which vehicles that came after then you have the T-64s, T-72s, & T-80s, !!!
Now if you want too know what Combat that they were in then the only Action would have been in the Border Conflict with China, the Breakaway Conflicts with the Republics like the 1st, and 2nd Checen Wars and the War with Georgia.
Other than Afganistan which was the Soviets Largest Involvement then too date, there hasent been a Tank Vs Tank type of Major Conflict. Now if your Talking Tank Vs Tank engagements by other Countries then that's another story.

CHEERS; MIKE.

Two wars in Chechnya (T-72B and T-80) and intervention in Daguestan, war with Georgia in 2008 ... Russian post-T62 tanks have seem a lot of action, although maybe not so much tank against tank fighting.

As mentioned the T-80 B w/ ERA saw action early in the first Chechan War. T-72B w/ ERA saw action in the 2nd Chechan war, as well as in South Ossetia.

The reason you see a lot of T-55's and T-62's in Afghanistan, Chechnya and South Ossetia is that Russia hasn't participated in a war where it was necessary or worth the cost of sending in the latest, greatest and very expensive MBT. They got cocky and learned their lesson when they wasted new T-80B's w/ ERA and their crews in the First Chechan war due to asymmetrical warfare, inexperienced crews, and supposedly unarmed ERA bricks. When it comes to guerrilla warfare a new T-72 or T-80 won't perform any better than a T-62M or T-55. Hope that answers your question.


Erik

Sorry for popping in, but that's pretty stretched in the Chechnya context.. Assault on Grozny where Chechen forces had heavy ATGMs and even some T-72B tanks is not your average anti-guerrilla warfare situation. I'm sure the newer and higher caliber HE rounds as well as the much better frontal armor protection were much preferred there. Also, the machine gun operated from the inside (as on T-80s) could be very welcome there.

I'm no expert on the matter, but I'd say the T-80 was excluded from the second war because it uses gas turbine which eats too much fuel (even while standing still) and supposedly takes more time to restart after the tank is hit which prolongs the reaction time of the tank to withdraw from an ambush. Also, it actually has weaker turret armor than T-72B, IIRC which becomes more alarming when your ERA packages are not filled as supposedly was the case in the first war. Also, apparently some were fueled with plain gasoline (instead of kerosene which is much less flammable, but I guess was less readily available at that time) and that fire suppression systems were not working on some (or most?). With no proper tactics and infantry support, it was a recipe for a disaster, but I'm sure some experts on the topic could provide much more correct and detailed information..

Ijozic you are quite right in what you have said. There were a whole host of reasons for the T-80s withdrawal from operations in Chechnya- as you mentioned the fuel problems were one of the main ones- the crews basically didn't do enough training to know how it ate through the fuel while stationary. Erik also mentioned the fact that some ERA bricks on the vehicles were empty and there were a other problems too. The Chechens they were facing also knew quite a bit about the T-80 (some were former Soviet soldiers who knew the tank well and seemed to know its weak points).

Ijozic you also mentioned the fact the Chechens in some areas had their own tanks and that is where tanks like the T-80 would have been the most use but the Chechens seldomly had that kind of heavy weapons back-up and couldn't deploy those weapons on anywhere even close to the scale of the Russians- hence a good majority of the fighting in Chechnya was of the guerrilla variety were T-80 and more advanced T-72s were less effective than they would have been if they had, indeed, been up against a more concerted effort from the Chechens. It was just because of the nature of the majority of the conflict that tanks like the T-62 were rolled out.

On further reading on the conflict, I can see the point you're trying to make since (barring occasional tank assaults and the assault on Grozny of the first war), the tanks were mostly used to support the infantry and fire at the defensive positions. Though, I'd still wager that the 125 mm HE grenade is much more powerful than the T-55's 100 mm one, but since the 55s were not used IIRC, that point is moot.

It just comes down to basic economics...T-62's and their already paid for and outdated ammunition are just as good as anything more modern when not fighting other tanks or large amounts of modern ATGM's. If you are going to end up losing a tank or two, better to loose old ones with less value.

If I could further comment, the T-64 and T-80 are actually Ukrainian creations, and the Russians proper have never been terribly fond of these vehicles. All T-64 in Russia have been scrapped (they were withdrawn way back at the collapse of the USSR from active service), and now they have withdrawn all T-80 from active service with the intention of scrapping them as well in the not so distant future. So that will leave the Russian Army with just the T-72 and T-90.

IIRC, it's somewhat more complicated so I've checked - the T-64, the T-80UD and the turret of T-80U seem to be of Ukrainian design and manufacture (though T-80U seems to be made in Omsk), but the basic T-80 (including A/B models I guess) series is a Russian design and was manufactured in Russian plants.

T-64 was a Kharkov (Ukraine) design. Up to 4000 in storage with Russia. (The citation used to claim Russia scrapped all of theirs is bogus. They are either in long term storage OR at a tank rebuilding plant looking pitiful)

T-80: The T-80 was designed in Leningrad at LKZ (Leningrad Kirov Plant). T-80U was a combined effort in redesign by both LKZ and Kharkov (Ukraine). T-84 was a redesign by Kharkov (Ukraine). Russia has about 4500 T-80BV and T-80U in long term storage.

I think the Navy might still be using the T-64- their Coastal Defence Troops apparently had some of them listed in use in 2011. Could have been scrapped by now though. I also thought the Army had well over 7000 T-64s in storage- have they been steadily scrapping them totally over the past few years?

I think Russia kept her T-64's in service since 1991-ish using cannibalized parts from other T-64's. Not sure how the spare parts storage was, but kharkov was the only one making T-64's and their parts. I could see, over 22 years or so how a force of over 7000 could whittle down to 4000+ just on basic attrition and wear. However, I have NO source that confirms this.

Well I'm just going by IISS figures from 2011- thats where I got the 7000 figure from.

Ah, ok then. My sources are NOT IISS for the more current numbers, just numbers from people in the military industry in Russia and Eastern Europe. Russia may have scrapped quite a few...and, IIRC they recently "exported" some to Uzbekistan.

From what I have read/heard, Russia (not to be confused with Ukraine which still has about ~2200 T-64'ss) has been scrapping out their for years now and completed the process mid 2012. This is from 2013 IISS the Military Balance.

But again Russia began scrapping their remaining T-64's in 2009, so figure about 4000 in 3 years about (or 1300 a year or a little more than 100 a month) is consistent with the info out their. Also the fact that about the time that T-64's were scrapped, they then took the T-80 out of service is consistent with the policy of going down to a single family of mbt (T-72/90) until the next generation becomes available.

The sources you mention, and not to be snippy in the least, but are they actual people in position who would know (and a lot of times people in the military don't actually know what is going on unless they are in involved in the actual process)?

Otherwise I believe Russia's T-64's have gone the way of the dinosaur.

Well I think what Jacques is saying makes sense- 2011 figures is the latest I have access to and I would say with an ongoing scrapping program they would have been whittling the numbers of T-64s down since then (2011). However, what you have said Michael, also sounds very valid- if they upped their programme timetable it is now very possible they are pretty much all gone.

Then again, you sometimes never know in Russia- we could see a whole bunch of them discovered at a factory or some other site awaiting so called 'scrapping' when in reality they are just left there to rust away while the odd bit that might have value is taken off.

Fair enough.

1. The Russians are still VERY touchy about their military readiness and stockpiles. They can be creative with wording in reporting to obfuscate their true holdings. For example, they may consider a T-64 "scrapped" if they pull the power pack out...or the turret off. They may still intend to rebuild the tank, rather than cut it up, but they will not say that.

2. They are still "Discovering" military equipment that was "misplaced". Think company level amounts of vehicles.

3. My sources are people working in the Military Industry, not in the military. A lot of what I find out also comes from Tanknet...lots of vets and military people where you can glean a LOT of technical info. But be prepared, a lot of what you think is fact often gets "adjusted' once you find out the truth behind the truth. For example, it was confirmed that Kharkov had indeed built a few gas-turbine T-80U's, which people vehemently denied for years. And obviously, there are some sources I will not name - I have been asked not to.

4. All that said, I can most certainly still be wrong and all the Russian T-64's were cut up, melted, and made into beams for Sochi. Or there could be sheds full of T-64's West of the Urals. The one thing I know for sure, there are no currently ACTIVE T-64's in the Russian Army.

Hi all,

This is possibly a case for Myth Busters AFV (if there was such as show, and maybe an idea for a talk radio show has now been born).

I agree with a lot of the caveats both you and Karl make. I have been keeping up with military equipment levels for decades now (just a geekish hobby of mine). My primary sources are IISS, IDR, web gossip. Yes there is a very good chance there are company level T-64 units left behind in some depot is the Urals/Siberia. But my point is that reporting wise the T-64 no longer is a tank that can be considered operational in the Russian Army. There is just way to much antidotal evidence out there for years now (they began the scrapping process in 2009).

On a side note, I work in the maritime shipping business, and know a lot of very large intl metal scrap dealers, and I usually hear of the Chinese Market (the buyer for these scrapped tanks). I know the Russians started a big scrap program in 2009. While I do not know the exact details, again it fits very well with the scenario I lay out. Also the program ended in 2012 which again fits well with the details I lay out. Not 100% conclusive, but interesting.

There is simply no reason to keep the T-64 even for updates as they are not going to ever use that chassis again. No one except the Ukraine and perhaps a former CIS Republic has the unit, and Ukraine has its own parts supply chain. Interesting pictures of the scrapping process can be found if you google "expired tank."

In very round numbers Russia has something like:

1. 700-800 T-90's.
2. 8000 T-72's.
3. 4500 T-80's (now all in reserve).
Their active duty tank strength is around 2500-3000, so you can see they are still quite glutted with equipment.

Anyways not wanting to belabor the issue, and this will be my final comments (At some point soon I will try to get a copy of IISS The Military Balance 2014 and copy/scan the Russian equipment level pages to post).

I think at this point I will concede. It is very likely that Russia has scrapped out most, if not all, of their T-64's. Their shaky relationship with Russia means neither country wants to depend on the other for military parts. All T-80UD in Russia are now scrapped, why not all T-64?