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Vague Topic Information by Staff should Stop
Konigwolf
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 03:02 AM UTC
As the topic says I'm getting sick wasting my time checking out posts about something I'm not interested in because the Armorama staffer who posted it was either phishing for more views or just ignorant.

Eg, there has been a few threads of late where the staffer has just posted Ausf X coming soon or ausf x that. Given the wide range of german vehicles that used ausf lettering to have to go into a thread to actually find something basic that should be in the Topic is basically is phishing for page views. If I'm not interested in the item I'm not going to follow the link (even if I did have to go the thread to check out the panzer type being posted about).
young_sven
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 03:18 AM UTC
I can to a certain degree understand your frustration (specifically if you are refering to totally missleading subject titles), but at the same time not fully.

I mean, this is a hobby after all, I am sure most of us "waste" a lot of time on forums clicking on posts which we quickly discover are not of interest to us.

Its kind of like those who get so incredibly wound up when a news item is mentioned twice or three times by different posters.

So what?

Its just a matter of exiting the link again. 2 seconds "wasted" clicking on a link and then exiting it again, perhaps one minute if you end up reading a little bit of it.

There are SO many things in life far more frustrating than clicking on the wrong links.

Relax and enjoy the hobby, and be thankful that some/many people are "wasting their time" posting, because that is the lifeblood of these sites :-)
SgtRam
Staff MemberContributing Writer
AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 03:20 AM UTC
First of all, I think you should look up the actual definition of phishing. The news title here are in line with how news title are used around the world. There is nothing in the title that is misleading. The news titles are written to grab attention, and yes lead people to want to read the story, just like done in newspapers for hundreds of years. Putting the exact details in the news title is like telling the whole story, then why bother writing a news article.

If you go to the News tab, there is a brief description of the news article, which is also posted in the forum post before you have to read the news story, maybe that might help you in not having to waste a few seconds and the energy of the click of a mouse.

Konigwolf
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 10:49 AM UTC
The guilty party defensive much mate?

I primarily use the forums, the other sections of the site I only use when I'm searching for specific information.

PS maybe technically I should of used Fishing instead of Phishing but as I believe you are attempting by 'shady' means to get more people looking at the thread I thought 'phishing' more applicable for your activity.

Staff should be leading by example NOT trolling by design!
iowabrit
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 12:27 PM UTC
At the very least put the scale (if applicable) in the title. The argument that, 'putting too much detail in the title makes the article less interesting', is, IMHO, Bull. Take '2014 catalogue' for instance. I am far more likely to read the article if it said 'Meng 2014 catalogue' (as an example) than I am to just click on it only to find it is about some braille scale stuff I have zero interest in. When that happens I feel like I've been conned and just makes me irritated with the staff because, like others, I feel it is only done to generate 'clicks' so you can charge more for advertising.
SgtRam
Staff MemberContributing Writer
AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 12:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

At the very least put the scale (if applicable) in the title.



The scale does show in the What's New Section and in the News tab section.
AFVFan
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 05:17 PM UTC
I hear you Andrew, and totally agree with what you're saying. I've been caught in the same situation. Kevin, the difference between this site and a newspaper is that this site isn't a newspaper. It should be as user friendly as possible. People will read the story if they're interested in the subject. Forcing people to click on a link just to find out what the story is, is just wrong. - and don't get me going on my opinion of overloading the discussion forums with news, features, and reviews that already have their own sections.

Sven, I don't know about you, but there are many people who use multiple sites, reading many different forums. At the end of the day the little bit here and there you mention can add up to a fair chunk of time and a lot of frustration.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 05:54 PM UTC
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/204777#1716841

Didn't change last time we had a thread on this. Still the same silly news "headlines". Page views sell advertising, and advertising pays the bills. Why this site can't stand solely on it's own due to content is?
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:16 PM UTC
Kevin and Dave are trying very hard to name news topics taking into account the requests of the site publisher. I am the first to admit that it is harder to do than you may think and we do not always get it right; it is a very fine line between informative and eye catching to misleading. I will raise your concerns with the publisher when I speak to him later today and make changes if instructed.

I myself feel Kevin and Dave do a very fine job of keeping you all informed of what's going on and if you feel different then please volunteer to step up and help; You need to remember that they do this in their own time and do not get any payments for that time. Talking of time I know Kevin has put in as much as 20 hours a week to try and keep you enlightened; I cannot speak for Dave as I just don't know.

As for Kevin being defensive I suppose that is possible, but I suspect it is more a case of him feeling pretty unappreciated for his time and effort.
Tiger_213
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Kevin and Dave are trying very hard to name news topics taking into account the requests of the site publisher. I am the first to admit that it is harder to do than you may think and we do not always get it right; it is a very fine line between informative and eye catching to misleading. I will raise your concerns with the publisher when I speak to him later today and make changes if instructed.

I myself feel Kevin and Dave do a very fine job of keeping you all informed of what's going on and if you feel different then please volunteer to step up and help; You need to remember that they do this in their own time and do not get any payments for that time. Talking of time I know Kevin has put in as much as 20 hours a week to try and keep you enlightened; I cannot speak for Dave as I just don't know.

As for Kevin being defensive I suppose that is possible, but I suspect it is more a case of him feeling pretty unappreciated for his time and effort.



Didn't you get called out on this just over a year ago?

I support the staff's usage of vague titles, and as Kevin pointed out the scale is always listed, just not where you want it.

With hundreds of different bits of news each year and any particular staff member not being an 'expert' or even knowledgeable on a certain subject, vague titles attract a wider audience who might still be interested (plus staff typically make corrections when they can).Whether it's exposure to a new product you might have over looked or it's one of the many posts with multiple items being announced, not to mention there is limited space for titles. Never mind that the point of a title is to grab your attention. How annoyed would you be if every title was "Something new" or "Products announced".

As Darren said, Kevin is posting for a large portion of the day. I continually see posts at odd hours for anyone in North America from him.

Worst case scenario is you click on a bit of news that isn't particularly relieving to you, but you are able to refer someone who might take interest in it at a later time. Personally, this makes or for a fair percentage of my posts.

Keep at it staff.
young_sven
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Skåne, Sweden
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Sven, I don't know about you, but there are many people who use multiple sites, reading many different forums. At the end of the day the little bit here and there you mention can add up to a fair chunk of time and a lot of frustration.



Hi Bob,

That is an excellent point. Yes, I visit several sites and am rather active on at least one, taking pics of my projects, photoshopping them and posting them with text and descriptions. All this is very time consuming (but great fun :-) ).

I also love to scratch-build (mostly Swedish vehicles) and this requires a lot of web searching for references. Many of these searches leave me empty handed, but I don't see them as waste of time, and I don't let it frustrate me. IMHO there are so many other things in life that present me with challenges and frustrations, I try to see my hobby as getting away from all that and not a source for anger and annoyance.

On top of that, I have a full-time job (like many others) and a very active two year old at home, so the limited time I actually have to spend on my hobby is quite precious..

I don't allow unproductive web searches, or clicking on irrelevant links get to me, but I can understand other's frustrations being aired here regarding misleading or vague topic titles (as I mentioned in my first post above), even though it doesn't bother me terribly much.

It is also too easy to rack on people on forums when you are not in a face to face discussion. I realize that I am also guilty of this in my first post, and for that I apologize to you, Andrew.

It is easy to forget that there is an actual person behind that "Ausf X" (or any other) thread who has taken the time to post information with text and pictures. Without these contributors there would be no sites, right?

Cheers,
Sven
retiredyank
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 11:35 PM UTC
Personally, I have no problem with news titles. I even prefer that a generic noun is used over nothing. I can see how you may find it misleading. However, all you need to do is click the "forums" tab. It takes what, 10 seconds?
Tojo72
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Posted: Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 11:49 PM UTC
It's not really a big deal to me
Konigwolf
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Tasmania, Australia
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:13 AM UTC

@Sven, No problems here you, (like everyone else on here) are entitled to your opinion (as long as we do it within the rules which I guess I maybe pushing), more so when you express it so well.

@Matt, I actually have the forums tab bookmarked its where I go right too. I'm seeing these vague headings under the Armour/AFV section of the forums not the news tab.

I generally skim through 3 or 4 forums a couple of times a day over a quick break. While it doesn't kill me checking "vague topics" the time it takes to load the page read it etc. I could be devoting to something I am actually interested in or make a reply to a post before I have to get back to the real world.

It is interesting to know I'm not the first person to voice issue over this though.

@Darren and other staffers, honestly is Ausf B.(quoting Darren here) " informative and eye catching " topic heading for the Armour/AFV forum. While its debatable that its "eye catching" I think (and many may agree) its far from informative. In this latest case "PzKpfw III Ausf B" would of been informative considering panzer types I, II, III, IV and VI all had sub-variants titled Ausf B, so Ausf B would at the very least be considered vague.
AlanL
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:20 AM UTC
It's really a matter of how you access your news. If you link to the news from the forum tab you might be a bit uncertain as to what your linking to. If however, you link to the news from the News Tab (which is what it's for) then I can't see anyone having an issue as what you see is what you get.

I generally use the News Tab to cover all in one hit rather than pick things up in the forums. Simple - your choice.

As you say time is precious.

Cheers

Al
retiredyank
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text


@Sven, No problems here you, (like everyone else on here) are entitled to your opinion (as long as we do it within the rules which I guess I maybe pushing), more so when you express it so well.

@Matt, I actually have the forums tab bookmarked its where I go right too. I'm seeing these vague headings under the Armour/AFV section of the forums not the news tab.

I generally skim through 3 or 4 forums a couple of times a day over a quick break. While it doesn't kill me checking "vague topics" the time it takes to load the page read it etc. I could be devoting to something I am actually interested in or make a reply to a post before I have to get back to the real world.

It is interesting to know I'm not the first person to voice issue over this though.

@Darren and other staffers, honestly is Ausf B.(quoting Darren here) " informative and eye catching " topic heading for the Armour/AFV forum. While its debatable that its "eye catching" I think (and many may agree) its far from informative. In this latest case "PzKpfw III Ausf B" would of been informative considering panzer types I, II, III, IV and VI all had sub-variants titled Ausf B, so Ausf B would at the very least be considered vague.




Quoted Text


It takes what, 10 seconds?

C_JACQUEMONT
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 01:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Didn't change last time we had a thread on this. Still the same silly news "headlines". Page views sell advertising, and advertising pays the bills. Why this site can't stand solely on it's own due to content is?



Exactly.

[rant mode]
I offered some time ago to help out the news team in order to get more accurate news, I got out eventually when I realised that what was expected of me was not to get more accurate news or find exclusive information that really interest modellers but to churn out pseudo news at high speed to beat other websites to the punch and generate more ad revenue.

That is sad but more a reflexion on modern economy and contemporary society than on Armorama, just following the times I guess.
[/rant mode]

On a positive note, critical postings are not deleted/removed, so at least here you can voice your opinion. You can thank Armorama for this.

Cheers,

Christophe
young_sven
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 01:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text


@Sven, No problems here you, (like everyone else on here) are entitled to your opinion (as long as we do it within the rules which I guess I maybe pushing), more so when you express it so well.




Cheers Andrew, I am relieved that you took my comments as they were intended, a friendly difference of opinion :-)
SdAufKla
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 02:49 AM UTC
It's really quite simple: Manufacturer, Scale, Subject. Just put those items in the titles of your news threads.

Yes, it's repetitive and a little dull, but it's informative which is the whole point (or what should be the point).

Just give us the facts so that we, your loyal readers, can decide if we want to know more. Don't make us hunt around or turn over stones to discover the 2 or 3 releases that we find interesting out of the perhaps dozen or so that you might announce in a given day.

A two sentence post that so-and-so has reviewed such-and-such with a link to the review is not ever going to earn a Pulitzer Prize. All the thread title needs to do is to tell us what the product is.

As Joe Friday said: "Just the facts, mam..."

If it's something that we're interested in, we'll read the review. If it's not, we'll skip it and spend our time here looking at something that we are interested in.

As it is right now, I'm like many of the others posting here - I've given up bothering to open news and reviews threads with nonsensical, "whimsical" and uninformative titles. If the intent is to inform and advertise new releases, then the current method is, as far as I'm concerned, ineffective and counter-productive.

And, yes, this topic has been raised SEVERAL times in the past. That should tell the site managers something if they care to listen.
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 02:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text


@Darren and other staffers, honestly is Ausf B.(quoting Darren here) " informative and eye catching " topic heading for the Armour/AFV forum. While its debatable that its "eye catching" I think (and many may agree) its far from informative. In this latest case "PzKpfw III Ausf B" would of been informative considering panzer types I, II, III, IV and VI all had sub-variants titled Ausf B, so Ausf B would at the very least be considered vague.



I did say we do not always strike the right balance, and as such fully accept we make mistakes. I do however prefer the headlines as they are currently, rather than reading panther this and tiger 1 that; while titles like that can make it easier when looking they are boring to read and do not encourage you to read something that may when you actually look at a news story catch your interest.
AlanL
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 03:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



Didn't change last time we had a thread on this. Still the same silly news "headlines". Page views sell advertising, and advertising pays the bills. Why this site can't stand solely on it's own due to content is?



Exactly.

[rant mode]
I offered some time ago to help out the news team in order to get more accurate news, I got out eventually when I realised that what was expected of me was not to get more accurate news or find exclusive information that really interest modellers but to churn out pseudo news at high speed to beat other websites to the punch and generate more ad revenue.

That is sad but more a reflexion on modern economy and contemporary society than on Armorama, just following the times I guess.
[/rant mode]

On a positive note, critical postings are not deleted/removed, so at least here you can voice your opinion. You can thank Armorama for this.

Cheers,

Christophe



Hi Christophe,

I may have misunderstood you post but what is in-accurate about the news? Armorama has it's share of exclusive news but isn't exclusive news being the first to publish something which kind of contradicts your point on churning out the news to be first to publish it? All news will be of interest to someone.

The News Tab negates the issue of vague titles and the complaint Andrew originally made. All the Staff here work for free giving their own time, money and input to provide both news and reviews for the benefit of the members.

How much 'news' is given at the point of publication will depend on what information is available at that time. How quickly that news gets published is dependent on the time zone the writer lives in and how much time they have to publish it.

Andrew's comment about phishing is a real kick in the teeth to people who spend their own time to keep the site as up to date as possible. If he doesn't want to waste his time he should use the News tab.

Armorama has one of the best news facilities on the web, there is also the matter of choice as there are other sites that also provide news.

Cheers

Al
SgtRam
Staff MemberContributing Writer
AEROSCALE
#197
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 04:28 AM UTC
As the Managing Editor of the News, we have always strive to deliver accurate news, while there are time we do rush some stories out, it is not to beat other sites at the punch, but we feel it may be of great interest to readers.

As for the titles, we have moved away from the more entertaining vague titles that was experimented with, to something more informative, but as I have mentioned before, I am not going to give away the story in the news title. Both the forum post and the News tab display a brief summary of the story, that should provided the viewer with enough information that they may or may not want to read the story.

As I take direction from the Editor-in-Chief, and ultimately the site Publisher, I will await further direction. But until then the use of the current title format will continue.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 04:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It's really quite simple: Manufacturer, Scale, Subject. Just put those items in the titles of your news threads.

Yes, it's repetitive and a little dull, but it's informative which is the whole point (or what should be the point).

Just give us the facts so that we, your loyal readers, can decide if we want to know more. Don't make us hunt around or turn over stones to discover the 2 or 3 releases that we find interesting out of the perhaps dozen or so that you might announce in a given day.

A two sentence post that so-and-so has reviewed such-and-such with a link to the review is not ever going to earn a Pulitzer Prize. All the thread title needs to do is to tell us what the product is.

As Joe Friday said: "Just the facts, mam..."

If it's something that we're interested in, we'll read the review. If it's not, we'll skip it and spend our time here looking at something that we are interested in.

As it is right now, I'm like many of the others posting here - I've given up bothering to open news and reviews threads with nonsensical, "whimsical" and uninformative titles. If the intent is to inform and advertise new releases, then the current method is, as far as I'm concerned, ineffective and counter-productive.

And, yes, this topic has been raised SEVERAL times in the past. That should tell the site managers something if they care to listen.



All of this. This is much better and less snarky than my reply would be.
pseudorealityx
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 04:51 AM UTC
Also, please keep in mind that many of your more frequent users likely use the "Latest Posts" button instead of clicking on each tab. That doesn't provide the additional information that the staff members are harping about.

Like others, at this point, I just ignore ALL the news and reviews titles.
staff_Jim
Staff MemberPublisher
KITMAKER NETWORK
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Posted: Monday, February 24, 2014 - 04:52 AM UTC
Regarding putting the brand/maker in the title. There is a technical reason that this isn't happening currently. A majority of our news readers find these items via the main news page or homepage, not the forums. So the main news page and the homepage already INCLUDE the maker of the kit.

I will see about adding the maker to the forum & what's new posts automatically.

Jim
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