Hi Gang,
as far as I know, IDF received at least one Chieftain for trials. I am toying around with the idea of building a hypothetical IDF tank from the Tamiya kit. What would be the hypothetical modifications for a track from Lebanon War?
105 mm M68 gun?
Two FN MAG`s on turret?
Urdan cupola?
Merkava style tracks?
Blazer armour blocks?
Any suggestions?
H.-H.

If you look at afv club's latest version of the centurion that I'd thought be about right. Don't know about the Urdan I thought that was only on the M60's? Also why go to tne hastle of changing the gun for a smaller one. Assuming they went with them, I'd've tnought it cheaper to buy the ammo(or produce their own) than re arm a whole bunch of tanks witn the smaller gun. IMO at any rate. At least they would not need to change the engine(unless they wanted to) Cheiftain's engines would run on pretty much anything!

Paul

After reading a book on the Chieftan recently I thought doing an IDF what-if would be really cool too. Are there any pics of the 2 the IDF had?



Erik

Found only one pic in Tankograd`s Merkava book.

I would suggest looking at the natural evolution of the Chieftain and compare it with the evolution of the M60 and M48 in Israeli service.

The use of add-on armour would be an easy choice. The cupola is fairly low profile already so it may not need to be changed. An additional MAG 58 for the loader would be a good option. Perhaps add a .50 Cal over the main gun.

This trial Chieftain showing experimental Chobham armour which would eventually lead to the Chieftain 900 and then the Challenger might be a good reference point.

There were three Chieftains in Israel at the start of the Yom Kippur War (1973), along with the British demonstration team (Israel was considering a purchase agreement).

They were stuck there as far as I'm aware until the end of hostilities. The change in the political landscape post-73 meant that the British decided that it wouldn't be appropriate to sell Chieftains to the Israelis so the opportunity was lost.

I very much suspect that the IDF would have retained the 120mm gun since they went that way with the Merkava - arguably, losing the opportunity to buy Chieftains pushed the Israelis down the road of an indigenous design more rapidly than they might otherwise have travelled.

I suspect they would have re-engined the Chieftain (the L60 was never popular with anyone) so you'd have ended up with something akin to the Jordanian Khalid MBT.

Reactive armour? - almost certainly at some point.

Regards,
John

Long ago I had several Minitank Leopards and Chieftains. A friend's dad was an M60 crewman and told me about IDF's "Patturion". I can't find reference to it now but supposedly IDF took the better components (engines, gun) from one type to upgrade the other. I don't recall which tank improved the other.

Anyway, I let my imagination run wild. Back then there was no M1 Abrams; the best tanks were supposed to be the Leopard and Chieftain. So I simply swapped turrets and created a troop of both. I recall the Chieftain turret on the Leopard body looked pretty impressive!

The engine and M68 gun from the M60 were installed on Centurions and thus giving birth to the Sho't Kal A.

If You want to make a supposed 1982"Peace For Galilee" version than you should add:
External 60mm mortar
Mag 58 for commander and loader
External coax M2 gun
Blazer ERA
Jerrycans
Bustle rack maybe
Rubberless tracks I think
Smoke dischrges as on the Sho't Kal CD or Magach 6B
Headlight from M60M48

Not sure about the engine, you should research about the reason the Centurions were upgraded with the M60's and see if those reasons concerns the Chiftain's aswell.

Add in some of the smoke grenade buckets and Israeli radio antennas. Maybe add some dingle ball and chain armour hanging off the underside of the turret bustle if it fits?

ERA and the 120mm for sure. Change out the engine deck for something that is reminicent of the Leopard II to indicate a new engine.

Make sure you have some Israeli pattern tools, fittings, jerrycans and racks. That sort of thing is always a good identifier for the user when doing "what-ifs". Same thing with colours and markings. Stick to period IDF stuff and the mental leap is that much easier to make.

Depending on your time frame I would take a look at the early Jordanian Khalid MBT > NOT the Al Khalid MBT.

Khalid (also designated 4030P2J

P = Phase & J = Jordan)/Shir (Lion) 1

The Jordanian Chieftain with the running gear of the Challenger 1.

Basically this was a transition vehicle from the Chieftain to the Shir 2 which had been intended for Iran but was subsequently cancelled.

The Shir 2 tanks became Challenger 1 tanks after reworking at ROF Leeds.

The Khalid MBT vehicle chassis comprised the front half of a Chieftain Hull, Chieftain running gear and the rear of a 4030/2 Chassis (Sloping Hull).

This allowed the fitment in the engine bay of a Rolls-Royce CV12 engine producing 1200 bhp at 2,300 rpm. withe the David Brown Defence Equipment Limited TN37 fully automatic transmission and a cooling system by Howden Aircontrol.

The commanders number 15 cupola had the sight mounting modified to accept the No 84 sight.

The No 84 sight had been developed by Pilkington Optronics and is a combined day/passive night sight plus projector reticle image unit, and provides the commander with a 24 hour vision and firing capability.

The No 84 sight incorporates two independent channels for day and night use and interfaces with the 120 mm L11A5 main armament via the projector reticle image unit which injects optical graticule information into the sight and also enables spot injection for the CSS.

It has a fully armoured hood, can be elevated from -10 to +35° and is also provided with a wiper blade.

From the above you can add whatever you feel the Israeli's may have developed and added for their use.

Keith.

Hey guys,
thanks for the input, I`ll what can be used with the build.
Another Question: The large box on the left turret side is the IR/whitelight for nightfighting? Would such a light be appropriate with an IDF tank?
H.-H.

That is a possibility but only as delivered and used for a very short timeframe, the White light/IR system was removed for overseas orders such as Iran and Jordan.

They would have very quickly changed the power pack and sights.

IF the British had contracted them I believe they would have been the same as the Jordanian contract, better suited for middle east use and further updated.

Take a look at Chieftan 900 for a reference.

http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueId=2125

Keith.

At some poin the IDF stopped using IR spotlights, I guess due to advancement in NV equipment. White-light spolights are still in use but I think that the Chiftain's is too large for the IDF's taste and would be removed so more Blazer ERA could be applyed instead.

I agree with the other lads...ditch the spotlight. Think along the lines of the Chieftain upgrades with Stillbrew and TOGS.

If you look at both the Centurion variants from the 1982 Lebanon days you will see typical modifications that would be pertinent to an Israeli Chieftain. You may want to consider leaving off the side skirts completely.

Maybe call it the "Nagid"....I took a literal meaning of Chieftain..."Leader"...and I think the Hebrew translation would be "Nagid"....pronounced "Naw-Gheed".

Have fun with the project!

Alright, I'm going to seek out a cheap Tamiya Chieftain and have some fun with it, all this talk is killing me haha.



Erik

It's pronounced "Na-Gid"

Chieftain is literally means "head of the tribe" so in hebrew it's "Rosh She'vet".

The Centurion was dubed Sho't (Whip) and the Pattons were dubed Magach (Ram), try to go on that line of names.

Thanks for the first hand clarification on the linguistics. I was simply trying to add a bit more IDF flavour to ideas for Hans-Hermann's project...no offence was meant by my simplistic attempt of a Hebrew name.

Any other suggestions for a name?

It looks like that IDF vehicle names are more complex than most know. For Example:
PUMA is an acronym Poretz Mokshim Handasati, meaning Minefield Brakethrough Vehicle.
or
MAGACH Merkavot Giborey Ha`milchama, meaning Chariot of the war heroes.
So I think that Rosh She`vet sounds good to me.
Thanks
Hans-Hermann

Neat idea and a very interesting project! Good info from the lads too, this has my interest for a wish build at some stage now ....... good luck!

Brent

It's just an urban (or maybe military) legend, it means Ram.
If you want, think of a name that seems fit in englishgreman and I'll translate it to hebrew for you

Guys:

Thanks much for an interesting thread.

Mr. Gostinsky, I've left you a PM.




Mark

Well, since this (almost) three years old (very interesting) thread just resurrected, I might throw in some ideas on my own (even if the OP lost interest in the project), just for the sake of fun...

The name: you can call it "Chisrael" or "Chiefrael"...
Just kidding, but going down the "tribal" line sounds like a good idea. Before the first Kingdom of Israel was founded, the ancient Israelites formed a loose federation of 12 tribes. This might give you some ideas... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_of_Israel

Main weapon: downscaling it to 105 mm doesn't make much sense. I would leave the original 120 mm.

Additional weaponry: a coax and two top mounted 7.62 MAG's, an external M50 coax, or perhaps white-light searchlight instead for an early "what-if". IDF spec. smoke grenade launchers, external 60 mm mortar.

The engine: since the original Leyland L60 was notoriously unreliable, I assume it would've been swapped at some point (but not right after purchase. It doesn't make any sense to buy a new tank and replace the original engine right after). As for later "what-if" version, a rear mounted Teledyne Continental diesel from a Merkava I/II sounds reasonable. In this case the tranny must go as well.

The tracks: original rubber-pads for a early, Merkava tracks for a late version.

Add-on armor: without for an early (pre '82), with for a late version.

Others: IDF spec. antenna(s), rear (infantry) phone and fire extinguishers, turret-basket(s), chain-armor (for a late, post '82 version, as these were introduced later based on the experiences of the First Lebanon War)

Color: IDF sand-gray used during the '70's for an early, late (current) version for a '82 or later vehicle.

Markings: The 7th or the 188th regular brigades.

H-H

As with German 1946 "what if" AFV's, why not let your imagination loose (within the boundaries of historical possibility) as to what you think it would have looked like? In truth, who could ever say you were "wrong"?

Have fun and it sounds like an interesting project.

Gary