_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Looking for references of Kpz.70 w/120mm gun
hugohuertas
Visit this Community
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 12:41 AM UTC
I know it may be a very very long shot, but does anybody have any pics or references of some of the two or three Kpz. 70 prototypes armed with the Rheinmetall 120mm gun?
All I could find are pics of the protoypes "mixed" by Dragon in their Black... kit.

I did not expect to, but got one of these through a friend, and I'm playing with the idea to build it as a what-if operational vehicle armed with the Rheinmetall gun instead of the missile one.
Kind of a "pre-Leopard" vehicle.

Apart from the lack of references, other concern I have is if the gun mantle width "as is" for for the missile gun would be enough to accomodate the trunnions for the 120mm gun.
Don't want to do major surgery to the base kit, but the mantle width looks a bit "narrow" to me, if you get what I mean..
Anyway, thanks for your help guys
tankmodeler
#417
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 04:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Apart from the lack of references, other concern I have is if the gun mantle width "as is" for for the missile gun would be enough to accomodate the trunnions for the 120mm gun.


Given that the sights are remote from the mantlet, I think the shape is fine. If you feel the trunions may lack support, you can add some plastic sheet on the outside next to the trunions to beef them up, but really, I think there fine. If you wanted to beef up the mantlet, it's pretty easy to add epoxy putty to what's there to widen it slightly or even completely reshape it to something a little more "modern" or thicker. I don't think it would take major surgery, just a little TLC.

Paul
hugohuertas
Visit this Community
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 05:16 AM UTC
Thanks for the suggestions
I'll see if I finally go widening the mantlet and/or adding styrene to the sides of the trunnions, or if I leave the part "as is".

Chuck4
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 10:20 AM UTC
Keep in mind the early Rheinmatell 120 prototype guns didn't have the distinctive, rounded, off center bore escalator about 2/3 of the way back from muzzle of the production guns installed on the leopard 2 and M1A1. These early guns had multi-stepped thermal sleeve rather like the French 105mm guns on the AMX30.

You can see what early barrels looked like on some of the very early Leopard 2 prototypes with Leopard 1A3 style turret with sloped sides.

Since Kpz70 120mm gun experiment predates even these early leopard 2 prototypes, I think it is a good bet they would have had gun barrels visuallymore similar in appearance to French 105mm amx30 guns than later production 120mm guns.
hugohuertas
Visit this Community
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 11:36 AM UTC
Wise observation.
After having no luck to find pics of the Kpz. 70 or the Keiler prototypes, I also decided to go the way of the Leopard 2 ones to find some ideas.

You are right. The early Rheinmetall guns were "multistepped" as you described.
But AFAIK in late 1973 or early 1974 some prototypes started to get guns with bore evacuator like the later L44
The Leopard 2 prototype at Saumur -maybe from 1978?- and the prototype at Munster and one at Koblenz show this kind of guns.

So it would be a matter of the time frame whithin I'll place the model... I may stress the operational life of my Kpz.70 well into the seventies...
Chuck4
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 05:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I

Apart from the lack of references, other concern I have is if the gun mantle width "as is" for for the missile gun would be enough to accomodate the trunnions for the 120mm gun.




The mentlet should be plenty wide for the trunnions of the 120mm guns. Compare the width of the Kpz70 mentlet with the mentlet on the upgraded leopard 2A6.

You might be looking at the wide mentlets on Leopard 2 prototype and Leopard 2A1-A4. The reason they are so wide is not to accommodate the trunnions, but to allow the complete gun to be pulled out through the mentlet without removing the turret from the hull. This requirement was appearently dropped when leopard 2a1-4 were upgraded to A5 and A6. So leopard 2A5 and A6 has only a narrow mentlet underneath the new appliqué wedge armor in front of the turret.
barkingdigger
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
#013
Visit this Community
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2014 - 09:10 PM UTC
I agree - the trunions on the Leo2 aren't any wider than on the KPz70, so other than wanting a bigger hole for gun removal, there'd be no need for a wider mantlet.

However, I do wonder if they'd have developed a different mantlet piece more akin to the "clean" shape of the Leo1 on any production models of Keiler. The KPz70 cast mantlet is very "American"-looking in shape, and could easily be made much simpler with a little effort. (And a smoother mantlet would allow better surfaces for add-on armour upgrades...)

The trouble with both the KPz70 & its 120mm sibling is they never got as far a series production, so the field is wide open for "What If" changes. (I've not seen any pics of the 120mm gun in place on a KPz70, even though it looks like a half-sectioned one is displayed next to the Munster KPz70.) Do we know if the Keiler would have retained the auto-loader? Or would it go back to a more traditional four-man crew?

[Edit: Don't forget to remove the missile guidance box on your Keiler! (In front of the 20mm gun pod...)]
hugohuertas
Visit this Community
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 02:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I agree - the trunions on the Leo2 aren't any wider than on the KPz70, so other than wanting a bigger hole for gun removal, there'd be no need for a wider mantlet.

However, I do wonder if they'd have developed a different mantlet piece more akin to the "clean" shape of the Leo1 on any production models of Keiler. The KPz70 cast mantlet is very "American"-looking in shape, and could easily be made much simpler with a little effort. (And a smoother mantlet would allow better surfaces for add-on armour upgrades...)

The trouble with both the KPz70 & its 120mm sibling is they never got as far a series production, so the field is wide open for "What If" changes. (I've not seen any pics of the 120mm gun in place on a KPz70, even though it looks like a half-sectioned one is displayed next to the Munster KPz70.) Do we know if the Keiler would have retained the auto-loader? Or would it go back to a more traditional four-man crew?

[Edit: Don't forget to remove the missile guidance box on your Keiler! (In front of the 20mm gun pod...)]



Interesting points you've done there.
If we go through the Keiler option, I'm almost sure that the driver position was placed in the hull, "a la" Leopard 1.

But my project will remain "just" a Kpz.70 with a 120mm gun instead of the 152mm missile one, so I'll keep the driver inside the turret...
Still have to decide if I will stay with the autoloader layoff -the most probable scenario- or if I will add the fourth crew man, and his hatch -difficult since the autocannon leaves almost no space for it-

I like the idea about the mantlet, I may try something more "german/Leopard-ish".

Damn, you're also right about the missile guiding system, I could easily forget about it!
So it will go to the recycle bin and I'll reshape the turret there...

Thanks for the suggestions!
Chuck4
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: November 13, 2013
KitMaker: 403 posts
Armorama: 401 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 09:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text



So it would be a matter of the time frame whithin I'll place the model... I may stress the operational life of my Kpz.70 well into the seventies...




If you envision your Kpz70 to go into production after 1973, then I suspect the whole turret would be heavily modified to incorporate high thickness slab sided composite protection in light of the experience of Yom Kippor war in 1973, just like on the leopard 2 prototype.

So my guess is KPz 70 would eventually end up with a turret shaped like the turret on the M-1.

The reason why I don't think even in german service the KPz 70 would acquire a leopard 2 like turret is because KPz 70 stores most of its ammunition in the back of the turret just like in the M-1, so it's turret would need to be much wider than on the leopard 2, which only store ready use rounds in the back of turret.
hugohuertas
Visit this Community
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Joined: January 26, 2007
KitMaker: 1,024 posts
Armorama: 1,013 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 05, 2014 - 11:05 AM UTC
I would consider a scenario where the Kpz.70 was developed relegating the Leopard 1 with cast turret.
So it might keep the basic turret design, and maybe incorpórate at some point later some additional armor, like the Leopard 1A1A2 or A1A4.
To keep the model "recognizable" I may leave the proposed additional armor off, so it should be an "interim" versión, so to say.

Still building the basic model hull, so not reach the point where I must decide these details yet.
But any other opinion and/or idea is really welcome.
rfbaer
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: June 12, 2007
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,696 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 06, 2014 - 03:42 AM UTC
Very interesting concept, got me thinking about the XM803.....
 _GOTOTOP